Sneaky Pete

In Illinois, this would be theft of lost or mislaid property. While state laws differ, in no state would this be "finders keepers". That doggerel only applies to items that cannot be positively identified (you know, no serial # or no individually identifying marks) or to something that has been abandoned. (Abandonment, of course, raises other questions, such as how long, or what actions indicate mental intent.) This weapon obviously was not abandoned, and even if no criminal violation by the "finder" exists, the civil law would call this an unlawful conversion (the conversion being that of ownership) and force the return to the lawful owner (or perhaps the state, if mislaying a firearm in a grocery store parking lot was some sort of violation of state law.)
What is most obvious is that your concealed carry method must be reasonably comfortable. If it hurts you to carry the weapon, you ain't doin' it right!
 
Budnjax said:
When you wear an item like a Sneaky Pete, with "SP" in big letters it certainly would tip-off anyone gun-wise that you're carrying. I don't know what the particulars of the laws on concealed carry are everywhere but it raises questions which might well vary depending on where you are, such as: are you legally carrying concealed if the gun itself can't be seen but where a clearly-identifiable handgun holster is visible and there's a gun in it? My personal view is that open carry in most urban situations, even where legal, is a dumb idea. Why? Because many people freak out at the sight of a gun; carry a gun openly and you're saying to a bad guy or cop (who doesn't know you're a good guy) "shoot me first." Although I'm a 2nd Amendment absolutist ("shall not be infringed" PERIOD!) just because something is legal does not mean it's in your best interest to do it. In the situation being discussed, I would give all this information to the police and let them handle it. If your gun somehow ends up in the hands of a child or criminal and it's not reported you may be in a lot of trouble and end up spending thousands of dollars for your negligence. Fair? No, but that's the way it is in 2016 Amerika.
Click to expand...

The laws obviously vary greatly from state to state. Arkansas is an open carry state so I don't think it matters if it is obvious or not there.

Concealed carry rigs are often somewhat obvious for those that know what they are but I doubt the general public or even the bad guys would know what most of them are.

I have been studying the Florida Firearms book by John H Gutmacher for a while now and our state has some odd rules like carrying while in a National Forest and engaged in hunting fishing or camping you can carry without a CWL but it must be concealed. (I find that rather bizarre.) The only time I personally would open carry (if legal) would be in the woods where I was more worried about animals than people thus making the FL law really counter productive. I agree with you 100% on the reasons for not showing you have a weapon.
 
I went into the restroom at the Sheriff's Office, and observed a pistol hanging on the hook in the stall. I knew who had used it last, so I found him and told him he might need to go back and check the hook. Then he ran back and got it. Thanked me profusely, as we could get into a lot of trouble for that, sometimes the public could use that restroom if in the office making a report, being interviewed, etc. Anyone can make a mistake, but mistakes involving firearms are serious. I know that, my friend knows that, and the man in this story does as well. Thankfully my story ended well. I do hope this guy's does as well. I do not like Sneaky Pete holsters because of the SP on the outside. Any crook, gun enthusiast, or officer knows what it is. I carry in a Bianchi fanny pack with secret holster. They haven't been made for a number of years, but other companies make similar items, though not nearly as well made. Any peace officer knows what it is. I am a proponent of concealed carry. I carry a lot of extra gear in mine, extra loaded mags, badge, cuffs, and small flashlight. I would like to hear the outcome of this story, was the woman who took the pistol caught? If so what was she charged with?
 
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Faulkner said:
I worked on a report and follow up investigation recently on a gentleman who lost his gun because he broke a cardinal rule in concealed carry . . . he took his gun off his person and left it unsecured.
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And here lies the moral of the story: avoid taking off your gun and leave it unsecured. I worry about this when leaving my firearms in my car even when it is locked in a well secure car safe. It makes me so nervous that I never carry when going to and from work. Concealed carry where I'm employed, if discovered, will get you terminated. The thought of leaving my hand gun 12 hours in the parking lot just makes me nervous.

I also, cringe when a female customer asks for handgun small enough to carry in her purse. I always recommend against it but as the saying goes, "the customers is always right (even when they are not)."

I know what my wife does with her purse, at the store it goes in the cart. She has more than once left her purse sitting in the booth at a restaurant. In this old guys opinion it is the very last place a woman should ever put her firearm for concealed carry.

any that is my minor rant for the day...carry on.
 
KSDeputy said:
I went into the restroom at the Sheriff's Office, and observed a pistol hanging on the hook in the stall. I knew who had used it last, so I found him and told him he might need to go back and check the hook. Then he ran back and got it. Thanked me profusely, as we could get into a lot of trouble for that, sometimes the public could use that restroom if in the office making a report, being interviewed, etc. Anyone can make a mistake, but mistakes involving firearms are serious. I know that, my friend knows that, and the man in this story does as well. Thankfully my story ended well. I do hope this guy's does as well. I do not like Sneaky Pete holsters because of the SP on the outside. Any crook, gun enthusiast, or officer knows what it is. I carry in a Bianchi fanny pack with secret holster. They haven't been made for a number of years, but other companies make similar items, though not nearly as well made. Any peace officer knows what it is. I am a proponent of concealed carry. I carry a lot of extra gear in mine, extra loaded mags, badge, cuffs, and small flashlight. I would like to hear the outcome of this story, was the woman who took the pistol caught? If so what was she charged with?
Click to expand...

Bolded above. A couple years back I was interested in a S.P. holster. In fact I was thinking of getting two different sizes.

Contacted the company and was "informed" that leaving their logo off was considered customization and we do not do customization. No problem two sales lost!




I also found a LEOs gun (model 60) in the outside bathroom of my buddies gas station garage. It was setting in the sink. The detective had a paddle held belt holster:eek: and took it off to facilitate business but forgot to put it back on.

We did the tune up and some other work for the town police and I saw who had left the gun. I called the cop shop and talked to a Sergent friend of mine and told him what happened. A couple minuets later I heard over the scanner Unit * stop at the garage and pick up a package.:D He cough a lot of semi friendly heck from the Sergent when he got back to the base but nothing on his file.:cool: That was the reason I asked to talk to my buddy there! He was a older cop and retired a year later.
 
The paradigm among most gun owners is that the law requires concealed carry be 100% undetectable in all body contortions, weather, and situations. The dictionary definition of concealed is "obscured from view" however.

Here in WA you cannot lose your CPL if you fail to conceal 'well enough' and there is no law for which a police officer can so much as detain you, much less arrest you, for poor concealment.

So why do people carry in ridiculous looking pouches like that?

For some of us we remember when concealed permission was difficult or impossible to get, and when we felt the need to carry anyway we made darn sure to conceal 100%. Some of that carries over and we have to remind ourselves that we're completely lawful in doing so.

Some feel it shows weakness to carry; they feel somewhat ashamed if someone finds out they carry. Gun carriers are kooks and paranoid, or so says the modern media, and some of us believe it just enough to make carry troubling.

Regardless of the reasons, there are far too many who try to justify their anxiety of concealed carry with justifications like, "I want to surprise the bad guy" or "The bad guy will notice it and shoot me/you first".

After over a decade of open, indifferent, and concealed carry, here are some rough unscientific estimates.

OPEN CARRY = maybe 30% of regular people even notice it.
POORLY CONCEALED CARRY = maybe 5% of regular people notice it.
GOOD CONCEALED CARRY = <1% would notice it even if you were bending at the middle.

Just carry in a good OWB holster. It's comfortable and concealed and means you'll be carrying a gun better sized for accurate shots, and will be in a serious caliber.
 
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@Faulkner,

Thank you for posting this thread, I am very interested in the ultimate outcome. In years past, prior to becoming disabled, concealed carry was a distant dream. Now that I am disabled, I see it as a necessity, where I am legal. I am not an insecure person, but with 3 damaged limbs, I do believe that I telegraph my vulnerability. When traveling out of state, I carry when I can, especially when I transport my target equipment. Because it is critical that my carry arm is carried comfortably, I am very curious how this scenario evolves. I don't envision voluntarily removing a sidearm from my person, but you never know what will happen next.
 
It's reported as stolen, entered into NCIC, suspect is on video and can be identified, and has procession of said reported stolen firearm. It can't get much better for PC filing of criminal charges. File charges, pick up the defendant and let the judge make the final decision. You asked for opinions, that's mine.
 
Whaddya mean the woman didn't steal the thing, as some one said earlier? Of course she stole it! She knew it wasn't hers. She demonstrated that knowledge when she looked around furtively to see if anybody was watching her and when she found none (except the eye in the sky), she grabbed it and stuck it in her purse out of sight and beat it to her car and took it home. She may or may not have had a clue what it was, but it was obviously something likely worth some money. Even if it wasn't worth any money, it was NOT her property! She apparently has made zero effort to report the item as something she "found" that someone else lost.

Finders only possibly becomes keepers after every effort possible has been made to locate the owner of the property and that has failed. I dunno the laws of the place where this happened, particularly in the case of a "found" firearm, but unless the woman wanted trouble, she would have logically immediately proceeded to take the item to the service desk of the store or asked for the manager and turned it in as found and described the circumstances. That would have been and always has been the RIGHT thing to do. Granted the fellow who was careless and left the "thing", anything, in the cart upon leaving the store was careless, maybe even considered negligent because it was a firearm. He may not have been guilty of a violation of law (I suspect there is a law that relates to what he did, even if it's vague and not always strictly enforced), but he was and is certainly liable for whatever may result from the use of that firearm after he allowed it to escape from his possession.

The woman ... she is not only culpable from a criminal standpoint, but also liable for whatever happens with that firearm from the time she took it into her own possession. Tell me this ... what if it had been a lady's purse sitting in that shopping cart? Or a store plastic sack full of items left behind. No doubt what it was, little doubt as to what probably was inside ... even possibly a firearm but certainly likely some money, credit cards, and/or car keys. Would it have been OK for the woman to grab it and beat it out of the store to her car and then home? Would that have been stealing? Most would say so. Some today probably might say, "Finders Keepers". She had a choice. Choices have consequences, both good and bad. The choice she, or anyone else made under the same or similar circumstances tells everything we need to know about that person's character. Sadly today, probably a majority of folks may have done exactly what she did. Being in the majority does NOT make what one does right! I think we all know what divides right and wrong here. But what each of us (or anyone else) may have done under the same circumstances would identify who and what we really are and what we stand for. There is and always has been an obvious difference between right and wrong. And getting away with something that is wrong doesn't make it right!
 
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Once identified, the officer would have probable cause to seek an arrest warrant/arrest the woman pursuant to AR Code 5-36-105 (2014), "Theft of property lost, mislaid, or delivered by mistake."

Most states have similar statutes. It's not finders, keepers... It's a crime!
 
Bill Bates said:
And here lies the moral of the story: avoid taking off your gun and leave it unsecured. I worry about this when leaving my firearms in my car even when it is locked in a well secure car safe. It makes me so nervous that I never carry when going to and from work. Concealed carry where I'm employed, if discovered, will get you terminated. The thought of leaving my hand gun 12 hours in the parking lot just makes me nervous.

I also, cringe when a female customer asks for handgun small enough to carry in her purse. I always recommend against it but as the saying goes, "the customers is always right (even when they are not)."

I know what my wife does with her purse, at the store it goes in the cart. She has more than once left her purse sitting in the booth at a restaurant. In this old guys opinion it is the very last place a woman should ever put her firearm for concealed carry.

any that is my minor rant for the day...carry on.
Click to expand...
I was quite happy in my CPL class to hear the instructor tell people in the class that once they put a gun in their purse, it's no longer a purse, it's now a gun and you should treat it as such.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum
 
Hey we all make mistakes, as long as we learn from them. We Cops have all made some doozies during our time, most of the time we won't admit them though. Mine came as I was in the jail to book in a DUI, as I was locking my sidearm in the lock box in the sally port, my prisoner decided he wanted to fight the Corrections guys and we all jumped in. Long story short, after the fight we all went into the booking area and a short time later another Officer came in with the key to my lock box and handed it to me. Here when we went into booking, I had forgot to finish locking the gun box and take the key. Big hard lesson learned, never to be repeated again. Fortunately, I never heard anything more about the incident.
 
1. Is there a serial #/sales receipt for the Ruger .380?
2. Does the surveillance video clearly show the woman who allegedly took the Sneaky Pete and Ruger well enough to identify her beyond a shadow of a doubt? Your initial description makes it sound as if the video clearly show her taking the item from the cart. Is it clear enough / enough evidence to file charges / arrest?

The variables from here forward are numerous depending on the answer to the above questions.
1. Woman who is on tape is found and she admits she took the gun and turns it over.
2. Woman is never found.
3. Woman is found and identifies herself as woman on tape but does not have the Sneaky Pete or firearm. "I lost it."
4. You're pretty sure you find the woman but not 100% sure and she does not admit to being at the grocery store parking lot.
4. Assuming no serial # / sales receipt, the woman is found, house searched, a Ruger .380 is recovered but she says she bought it from a dude off Craig's List. How do you prove it's the firearm taken from the scene?

My opinion is this is theft but you have to be able to prove a few things before you can charge / arrest the woman in the video surveillance.
 
g8rb8 said:
1. Is there a serial #/sales receipt for the Ruger .380?
2. Does the surveillance video clearly show the woman who allegedly took the Sneaky Pete and Ruger well enough to identify her beyond a shadow of a doubt? Your initial description makes it sound as if the video clearly show her taking the item from the cart. Is it clear enough / enough evidence to file charges / arrest?

The variables from here forward are numerous depending on the answer to the above questions.
1. Woman who is on tape is found and she admits she took the gun and turns it over.
2. Woman is never found.
3. Woman is found and identifies herself as woman on tape but does not have the Sneaky Pete or firearm. "I lost it."
4. You're pretty sure you find the woman but not 100% sure and she does not admit to being at the grocery store parking lot.
4. Assuming no serial # / sales receipt, the woman is found, house searched, a Ruger .380 is recovered but she says she bought it from a dude off Craig's List. How do you prove it's the firearm taken from the scene?

My opinion is this is theft but you have to be able to prove a few things before you can charge / arrest the woman in the video surveillance.
Click to expand...

1. We have the serial number of the .380

2. The video clearly shows the woman enough to identify her.
 
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