kennethdlarson;139395010 15.0 grains of 2400 w/standard primer and have been getting ~1200fps+/- out of the loads. [/QUOTE said:
So....I'm waiting for the "Magnum" in .357 Magnum
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buck460XVR
Member
I for one think you are expecting too much as far as recoil and muzzle blast from moderate loadings with a heavy for platform firearm. What you find disappointing is what many folks that shoot .357 desire. Mild recoil from legitimate .357 performance ammo. The magnum suffix in firearm caliber does not stand for brutal, but larger as it pertains to it's parent case. I take many new to handgun shooters to the range and a good medium/large frame .357 revolver is what many of them enjoy the most, even with legitimate .357 magnum loadings. Being pleasant to shoot and easy to acquire accuracy is the reason.
There are are loads that will give you more recoil and muzzle flash/blast. Odds are they will not "wear" the gun out any faster than what you are shooting now. I doubt tho, that they will satisfy your desire to be overwhelmed with recoil and flash in the firearm you have. Big recoil and absolute velocity with my mag revolvers has never been a priority to to me. If I want to see fireballs coming out the barrel of my .357s, my go to H110?W296 hunting loads in low light give me all the show I want. If I want more recoil and more power, I shoot something bigger. The beauty to me in the caliber is the accuracy that can be achieved, while enjoying the shooting experience. While the .357 mag is a powerful caliber, in a long pipe N-Frame configuration, even with legitimate .357 loads, it's gonna be relatively pleasant to shoot if you have decent grips on it and it fits your hand. Nuttin' else to say.
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.357 Magnum is an eminently shootable round, especially in a large steel revolver. A 6" 686 certainly belongs in the "large" category. 1200 fps may not be a doughnut-maker (in the muzzle blast), but it represents twice the muzzle energy compared to a standard .38 SPL in the same revolver. If you want pain, switch to .44 Magnum (or .50 SWM). Even .38 SPL is a pain in a 15 oz J-frame. In a 42-48 oz revolver, NOT.
Muzzle velocity is elusive if all you have are loading specifications. You need to know what test fixture was used, which is typically a 8" or longer barrel with a closed breech. If you want to know, rather than interpolate your own performance, use a chronograph.
Reloading tables don't represent the edge of the envelope. There are too many variables to do that without extensive testing and quality control. Be happy and safe. If you want the ultimate performance, look to Buffalo Bore or other heavy hunting ammunition. Not all BB ammunition is safe for a Smith revolver, so read the label. For most of us, Federal or other standard brands provide a cheap, safe thrill at 1300+ fps from a 6" barrel.
Muzzle velocity is elusive if all you have are loading specifications. You need to know what test fixture was used, which is typically a 8" or longer barrel with a closed breech. If you want to know, rather than interpolate your own performance, use a chronograph.
Reloading tables don't represent the edge of the envelope. There are too many variables to do that without extensive testing and quality control. Be happy and safe. If you want the ultimate performance, look to Buffalo Bore or other heavy hunting ammunition. Not all BB ammunition is safe for a Smith revolver, so read the label. For most of us, Federal or other standard brands provide a cheap, safe thrill at 1300+ fps from a 6" barrel.
m657
Member
For *me* the most unpleasant part of any '357 magnum' recipe, is not the recoil, but rather 1) muzzle blast noise; and 2) muzzle flash.
Those are dependent on variable of powders used and other details.
I really don't care to shoot most '357 magnum' loads because they annoy me.
I prefer the 41 magnum as it just sounds different, as does the 44 special.
This is not to bash any metric of 357 magnum, just to mention something I rarely see in such discussions. Even the heavy loads decades ago when trying to develop suitable loads for IMHSA, and in fondness for the historic recipes of the great Skeeter Skelton.
Too much treble-range sonics for me. 38 special somehow escapes that bit of annoyance.
Those are dependent on variable of powders used and other details.
I really don't care to shoot most '357 magnum' loads because they annoy me.
I prefer the 41 magnum as it just sounds different, as does the 44 special.
This is not to bash any metric of 357 magnum, just to mention something I rarely see in such discussions. Even the heavy loads decades ago when trying to develop suitable loads for IMHSA, and in fondness for the historic recipes of the great Skeeter Skelton.
Too much treble-range sonics for me. 38 special somehow escapes that bit of annoyance.
scooter123
Member
A few things to keep in mind.
First, the original 357 Magnum load featured a LEAD bullet. Note, lead has less friction in the bore than a copper jacket and that reduced friction is probably worth a 100 fps difference.
Second, when it was originally developed the only means of measuring pressure was the old Copper Crusher method. A method that really only measures the AVERAGE pressure but does NOT measure near instantaneous spikes in pressure.
Third, those 1500 fps velocities were probably the result out of a 10 or 12 inch barrel and longer barrels will increase the measured velocity. There is also the simple fact that the means for measuring velocity today are undoubtedly much more accurate that what was used in 1935.
So, what is a "reasonable" expectation for a jacketed 357 Magnum today. Someone referenced an American Eagle Semi Jacketed Soft Point and stated that the velocity was not given but it was a rather hard hitting load. I've shot that particular load back when the velocity was published and at that time is was listed as 1250 fps from a 6 inch barrel. This is achievable if you use a near maximum charge of H110 with a 158 grain Hornady XTP. It's also an accurate fairly hard hitting load but not one I would recommend using at an indoor range because of the loud booming report may alarm neighboring shooters. I also would not recommend this load during a "fire emergency" due to a drought, because out of a 6 inch barrel the muzzle flash is rather impressive. Personally I reserve these loads for use in my 357 Magnum rifles where they are much quieter, feature no visible muzzle flash in daylight, and get up to about 1700 fps from my 20 inch Winchester.
For my handgun loads I am perfectly willing to "give up" about 50 fps and use a much more user friendly load using Accurate #9. From my 6 inch Dan Wesson I've clocked these loads at an average of 1200 fps and they are quite pleasant to shoot.
First, the original 357 Magnum load featured a LEAD bullet. Note, lead has less friction in the bore than a copper jacket and that reduced friction is probably worth a 100 fps difference.
Second, when it was originally developed the only means of measuring pressure was the old Copper Crusher method. A method that really only measures the AVERAGE pressure but does NOT measure near instantaneous spikes in pressure.
Third, those 1500 fps velocities were probably the result out of a 10 or 12 inch barrel and longer barrels will increase the measured velocity. There is also the simple fact that the means for measuring velocity today are undoubtedly much more accurate that what was used in 1935.
So, what is a "reasonable" expectation for a jacketed 357 Magnum today. Someone referenced an American Eagle Semi Jacketed Soft Point and stated that the velocity was not given but it was a rather hard hitting load. I've shot that particular load back when the velocity was published and at that time is was listed as 1250 fps from a 6 inch barrel. This is achievable if you use a near maximum charge of H110 with a 158 grain Hornady XTP. It's also an accurate fairly hard hitting load but not one I would recommend using at an indoor range because of the loud booming report may alarm neighboring shooters. I also would not recommend this load during a "fire emergency" due to a drought, because out of a 6 inch barrel the muzzle flash is rather impressive. Personally I reserve these loads for use in my 357 Magnum rifles where they are much quieter, feature no visible muzzle flash in daylight, and get up to about 1700 fps from my 20 inch Winchester.
For my handgun loads I am perfectly willing to "give up" about 50 fps and use a much more user friendly load using Accurate #9. From my 6 inch Dan Wesson I've clocked these loads at an average of 1200 fps and they are quite pleasant to shoot.
OP
kennethdlarson
Member
Thanks for the replies...I enjoy reading them! I was thinking about it this morning (at church of all places) and as some of the above posts indicate, I am getting the performance I am asking of the cartridge as loaded. I am not looking for the wrist/elbow crunching, atomic fireball spewing screamer loads that are out there - though I would like to put a few cylinders thru the gun just to see what they are like! I have to remember that in circa 1935 this was THE definition of revolver performance. Now we have revolver/cartridge parings that'll suck the paint off of your house and give your family a permanent orange afro. (Name that movie and you'll get 100 points....
). I'll keep in mind the power/flat shooting/manageable recoil in an N-Frame that buck460XVR spoke of.....and I might try a little more 2400 in the loads. Happy New Year!
). I'll keep in mind the power/flat shooting/manageable recoil in an N-Frame that buck460XVR spoke of.....and I might try a little more 2400 in the loads. Happy New Year!
And Happy New Year to you...
I shoot target load and moderate loads for an hour and a half or so, but before I clean up and go I fire off some barn burners just to get the 'feeling'. I don't hunt and I have NO reason to fire a .357 full blast, except for occasional kicks.
Thanks for the replies...I enjoy reading them! I was thinking about it this morning (at church of all places) and as some of the above posts indicate, I am getting the performance I am asking of the cartridge as loaded. I am not looking for the wrist/elbow crunching, atomic fireball spewing screamer loads that are out there - though I would like to put a few cylinders thru the gun just to see what they are like! I have to remember that in circa 1935 this was THE definition of revolver performance. Now we have revolver/cartridge parings that'll suck the paint off of your house and give your family a permanent orange afro. (Name that movie and you'll get 100 points....
I shoot target load and moderate loads for an hour and a half or so, but before I clean up and go I fire off some barn burners just to get the 'feeling'. I don't hunt and I have NO reason to fire a .357 full blast, except for occasional kicks.
m657
Member
speaking of '460 S&W'.....my buddy last summer got a 4" version to go with his full length hunter style (what, 8 3/8?)
Same load for both, a bit down from the published max loads, in his long barrel, was noisy but almost pleasant to shoot, as I did a few cylinders full.
I stood behind him for the 4" trial. Same load. He was hurting by the 3rd round, invited me to finish it, which I declined. I was bruised & maimed just from the muzzle blast, and that with his body & head between me & the muzzle.
I don't have any use for those kinds of recipes.
Same load for both, a bit down from the published max loads, in his long barrel, was noisy but almost pleasant to shoot, as I did a few cylinders full.
I stood behind him for the 4" trial. Same load. He was hurting by the 3rd round, invited me to finish it, which I declined. I was bruised & maimed just from the muzzle blast, and that with his body & head between me & the muzzle.
I don't have any use for those kinds of recipes.
SLT223
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If you have an extra barrel.....
An N frame forcing cone can erode just like any other when it's hit with the FlowJet like abrasive force of slow burning, high temp, ball powder. I have several 6" 28's. My primary has such an exquisite action, that yes, I bought an extra barrel off the forum here ($65 delivered
) because I do anticipate killing the one in the gun at some point. The forcing cone is starting to show signs of enthusiastic magnum shooting. I expect to be around for a long time, and I'll be reloading and shooting every weekend until the day I check out if I can help it.Qc Pistolero
Member
1500fps 158gr outta 6''bbl;these were the original velocities in 1935 but if I remember correctly the great Skeeter Skelton said about these loads that''they were hot as a depot stove''.He also mentionned something about the ammo manufacturers tuning them down a bit a little later on.
A .357Mag when shot from a N frame is not a hard kicker.My standard load for the .357 is a 166gr cast SWC pushed at a little over 1300fps with H110(chronoed in a few different 6''bbl guns)and some will show primers that are beginning to deform a bit.When shot from my K frame,while not yet a brute,it certainly gets your attention.From my 4'' N frame,it is almost a *****cat.
Please don't push your loads too hard.It is a .357 mag.If you want heavy kick,get a .41 Mag or anything bigger.Every gun has it's limits and when it fails,you might loose a lot more than just your pride.
Have fun and be safe!
Qc
A .357Mag when shot from a N frame is not a hard kicker.My standard load for the .357 is a 166gr cast SWC pushed at a little over 1300fps with H110(chronoed in a few different 6''bbl guns)and some will show primers that are beginning to deform a bit.When shot from my K frame,while not yet a brute,it certainly gets your attention.From my 4'' N frame,it is almost a *****cat.
Please don't push your loads too hard.It is a .357 mag.If you want heavy kick,get a .41 Mag or anything bigger.Every gun has it's limits and when it fails,you might loose a lot more than just your pride.
Have fun and be safe!
Qc
Alk8944
US Veteran
Scooter123,
From your post:
A few things to keep in mind.
First, the original 357 Magnum load featured a LEAD bullet. Note, lead has less friction in the bore than a copper jacket and that reduced friction is probably worth a 100 fps difference.
I have posted this information many times, the last was in my post in this thread.
Second, when it was originally developed the only means of measuring pressure was the old Copper Crusher method. A method that really only measures the AVERAGE pressure but does NOT measure near instantaneous spikes in pressure.
True, but millions of rounds have been fired with no problems, at the pressures determined by this method. It is just as valid as it ever was! And, it has nothing to with the current discussion of velocity.
Third, those 1500 fps velocities were probably the result out of a 10 or 12 inch barrel and longer barrels will increase the measured velocity. There is also the simple fact that the means for measuring velocity today are undoubtedly much more accurate that what was used in 1935.
These are both absolutely untrue. Original chronographed velocities were determined by shooting the cartridge in actual revolvers with 8 3/4" barrels, not from universal receivers or longer than standard barrels. You want to know more about development of the .357 Magnum? Then read Phillip Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" originally published in 1937. There is an entire chapter specifically about development of the .357 Magnum. Mr. Sharpe played a direct role in development of the cartridge, both with S&W and Winchester. His information is as "Straight from the horses mouth" as anything available anywhere!
Contrary to modern "lore" electric "Counter Chronographs" were available in the 1930s. They are far slower than modern chronographs (Ever wind wire screens? I have!). The tables would only give velocities in 10 FPS increments, but this hardly constitutes being less accurate. Shoot the same load over different chronographs available today and you can see far greater variation than this from one to another. Even the same machine on different days and conditions!
Finally, velocities in the 1500 FPS range are very doable in the .357 Magnum, from an 8 3/8" barrel. I have shot many rounds of 15.3 gr. 2400/158 LSWCGC from 2 different 8 3/8" Model 27s bought specifically for this purpose. Depending on conditions and which gun this load developed from 1498 FPS to 1530 FPS uncorrected. Corrected to the muzzle adds another 10 FPS approximately! If you don't believe it I can show you the chronograph date from my Oehler Model 35-P. The velocity variations I have posted here and before are not what I read in a magazine or on the internet, they are actual experience from shooting hundreds of rounds over the chronograph so I would have a personal grasp of the true effects of changing bullet type and lubricants on .357 Magnum.
From your post:
A few things to keep in mind.
First, the original 357 Magnum load featured a LEAD bullet. Note, lead has less friction in the bore than a copper jacket and that reduced friction is probably worth a 100 fps difference.
I have posted this information many times, the last was in my post in this thread.
Second, when it was originally developed the only means of measuring pressure was the old Copper Crusher method. A method that really only measures the AVERAGE pressure but does NOT measure near instantaneous spikes in pressure.
True, but millions of rounds have been fired with no problems, at the pressures determined by this method. It is just as valid as it ever was! And, it has nothing to with the current discussion of velocity.
Third, those 1500 fps velocities were probably the result out of a 10 or 12 inch barrel and longer barrels will increase the measured velocity. There is also the simple fact that the means for measuring velocity today are undoubtedly much more accurate that what was used in 1935.
These are both absolutely untrue. Original chronographed velocities were determined by shooting the cartridge in actual revolvers with 8 3/4" barrels, not from universal receivers or longer than standard barrels. You want to know more about development of the .357 Magnum? Then read Phillip Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading" originally published in 1937. There is an entire chapter specifically about development of the .357 Magnum. Mr. Sharpe played a direct role in development of the cartridge, both with S&W and Winchester. His information is as "Straight from the horses mouth" as anything available anywhere!
Contrary to modern "lore" electric "Counter Chronographs" were available in the 1930s. They are far slower than modern chronographs (Ever wind wire screens? I have!). The tables would only give velocities in 10 FPS increments, but this hardly constitutes being less accurate. Shoot the same load over different chronographs available today and you can see far greater variation than this from one to another. Even the same machine on different days and conditions!
Finally, velocities in the 1500 FPS range are very doable in the .357 Magnum, from an 8 3/8" barrel. I have shot many rounds of 15.3 gr. 2400/158 LSWCGC from 2 different 8 3/8" Model 27s bought specifically for this purpose. Depending on conditions and which gun this load developed from 1498 FPS to 1530 FPS uncorrected. Corrected to the muzzle adds another 10 FPS approximately! If you don't believe it I can show you the chronograph date from my Oehler Model 35-P. The velocity variations I have posted here and before are not what I read in a magazine or on the internet, they are actual experience from shooting hundreds of rounds over the chronograph so I would have a personal grasp of the true effects of changing bullet type and lubricants on .357 Magnum.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
Particularly if you are using the "Dark Blue" font. Change to light blue and it isn't nearly as bad. Or, you can "Hi-Lite" the red text and it will change to white on blue.
Is the green any better?
Since nobody has brought it up..Try these, and see what magnum feels like..From the manual.
Alliant Powder 300mp
357 Magnum
125 gr Speer GDHP 300-MP 22.3 1,995
158 gr Speer GDHP 300-MP 18.6 1,686
170 fr Speer GDHP 300-MP 17.5 1,617
Alliant Powder 300mp
357 Magnum
125 gr Speer GDHP 300-MP 22.3 1,995
158 gr Speer GDHP 300-MP 18.6 1,686
170 fr Speer GDHP 300-MP 17.5 1,617
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Magnum JHP loads, 357, 41, 44mag. 2400 powder.
Leadcast loads, 38 spec, 357, 41, 44 mag. Unique powder.
There's been lots of talk here in the past about flame cutting / torch cutting the throats on the barrels when hotter loads are used.
My most accurate 357 magnum load is the Speer 140gr JHP with 2400 powder in my 6" barreled Python.
Leadcast loads, 38 spec, 357, 41, 44 mag. Unique powder.
There's been lots of talk here in the past about flame cutting / torch cutting the throats on the barrels when hotter loads are used.
My most accurate 357 magnum load is the Speer 140gr JHP with 2400 powder in my 6" barreled Python.
cowboy4evr
Member
My most accurate 357 magnum load is using a lyman style 358156 (with the gas chk removed) double crimp groove , Ray Thompson design , it weights about 160grs . Tom @ Accurate molds has it in his catalogue . This bullet crimped in the top crimp groove sitting on top of 7.5grs of WSF , spp performs extremely well in every 357 I have tried it in , and that's quite a few .
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jwalts27
Member
Agreed. Im at 16.5 Anything with H110 will feel MAGNUM
GavinLee
Member
As far as original loadings are concerned wasn't the the .357 magnum developed around 43,500 psi where it is now 35,000 psi?
GavinLee
GavinLee
daniel lawecki
Member
Break out the H110 and work up to near max or max.
noylj
Member
Dear OP:
You bought the wrong cartridge.
I was shooting .357 Magnum when I was 10 years old and never had a problem. You will need at least a .44 Mag.
All 296/H110 can safely give you is 50-100 fps more velocity.
You bought the wrong cartridge.
I was shooting .357 Magnum when I was 10 years old and never had a problem. You will need at least a .44 Mag.
All 296/H110 can safely give you is 50-100 fps more velocity.
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