Springs binding in my Shorty 45

[BMCM]

Well I guess it's about time I updated this thread. I've had several range sessions with the shorty running a 27 coil flatwire spring, the latest just this past Saturday and I can tell you it works just fine.

Just to illustrate my point why coil bind is a bad thing.
Here's a picture of three springs. All the exact same spring too, an ISMI CCF22.

The left one is a brand new, never been in a gun 30 coil spring.
The right one is a 30 coil spring cut to 27 coils and had about 300 rounds on it when this picture was shot.
The middle spring has been fired a mere 14 rounds and is ruined.
So how can this be? Well, I'll tell ya...
Remember the Shorty only has .774" of space for the spring to occupy at full slide retraction. A 30 coil spring binds at .780". So instead of landing on the frame's impact abutment, the slide is landing on the spring every shot when the spring has no room to compress any further. While six thousandths of an inch doesn't sound like much, the net effect is the same as manually compressing the spring fully and with the spring in a state of coil bind, striking it with a hammer 14 times. While You can plainly see some deformation and loss of free length there, what you can't see is the the loss of strength that's apparent by simple hand manipulation compared to the other two springs. That spring has become a noodle.

Now the 27 coil homemade version which binds at .702" has plenty of room to work in the Shorty. I've not had a one single malfunction of any sort since running this spring and as you can see there's not a single blemish on the frame's impact abutment.

And no effect on accuracy

I'm satisfied these springs perform perfectly thus I went and stocked up.

I'll be contacting ISMI to see about a regular stock item of this weight rating and 27 coils. I think the only improvement to be made here is NOT having to trim springs to size when I want to replace one so we'll see what they have to offer soon.

Cheers
Bill

 

[18DAI]

BMCM was kind enough to send me his aftermarket recoil springs to try in my Shorty 45 MKII.

Sunday I put 42 rounds through the Shorty 45 with BMCM's spring installed. I fired 7 rounds slow fire and the rest in fast pairs.

Accuracy was stellar, as usual and the Shorty 45 MKII functioned flawlessly. Again, as usual.

Many thanks to BMCM for solving this potential problem for all of us!

I will try another of BMCM's springs in my rail free, 7-round 4513TSW next outing. I expect it will exhibit the same perfect function. Thanks again BMCM!! Best regards, 18DAI

 

[vigil617]

Verrrrrrrry interesting, Master Chief.

And so, I hope you'll find, is this: on my first-run Shorty 45 (not the Mk 2, as yours is), it does not appear that I have spring stacking. I just replaced springs with brand new ones from Numrich. Comparing the points of maximum travel of the slide with springs and without springs, my slide without springs bottoms out approximately 7/32" forward of the point of bottoming out with springs. (To refresh everyone's memory: this is the opposite of what Bill observed on his Mk 2, where the slide bottomed out without the springs approximately 1/8" rearward of the point with springs.)

I don't have the more sophisticated measuring tools you have, so take the next for what it's worth, but as best I can measure the end of my spring tunnel, it is 3/32 of an inch thick -- definitely not the thicker dimension of your Mk 2 slide tunnel end. Maybe that's the key to the whole issue here.

Admittedly, the springs I just put in were what I ordered from Numrich as the inner and outer "4516" springs and though they came in painted blue as I believe the S&W springs were, I don't know if in fact they are OEM S&W parts.

Anyway, FWIW....and thanks for a very instructive thread....

 

[BMCM]

If you still have it, try that 30 coil spring in your 4513. That gun has more room and can accommodate more spring. That's the exact same spring I run in my SSV which has a 4513 upper.

Cheers
Bill

 

[03Fatboy]

I only hope to one day find a Shorty 45. It's good to know we are in good hands. Many thanks to Bill for that.

So, are you using any ISMI springs for the 4506?

 

[BMCM]

I only hope to one day find a Shorty 45. It's good to know we are in good hands. Many thanks to Bill for that.

Better be fast on the draw, I won't hesitate to grab another one if'n I see it first

So, are you using any ISMI springs for the 4506?

Not at the moment. There's really no need, I've got plenty of standard weight Wolff springs plus a tuning pack for that gun. and so long as anyone is making fullsize 1911 recoil springs, I can keep that gun running.

Cheers
Bill

 

[BLUEDOT37]

1076 stacking

Bill,

Glad you got back with us & updated this. I got a couple questions & then I'll tell you my story.

- do you think this gun (Shorty) always had the stacking/binding issue with factory springs & you just noticed it?

- were you able to get anything from S&W (the 3rd Gen. experts) as to whether the factory replacement spring dimensions changed causing this issue?

- I'm guessing that guns vary in their thickness at the spring tunnel opening but the recoil spring should be designed to allow for this, within reason?

I recently got a 1076 (single recoil spring) & ordered a compliment of replacement springs from Wolff for it before I shot it. After I put Wolff's standard 17# spring in & racked the slide I noticed it didn't feel/sound "right" when it stopped it's rearward motion. I remembered this thread & marked the slide/frame & found the slide was stopping about 1/2 a pencil mark's thickness too soon with the Wolff spring in, verses with no spring. I then put the gun's original spring (factory?) back in & it was actually a hair worse, instead of better. A heavier Wolff spring was no different either, of course.

I don't have a new factory spring to try & I haven't measured the spring tunnel thickness (I don't know what a good measurement is anyway) but I'm wondering if I should try to cut a turn off of one of the springs to see if that helps? I think that's all it would take to allow it to stop on the frame.

What do you guys think? I've never noticed this on my other 3rd Gens & I just went thru double checking & racking them all again & they're fine, even the one's that I went to the ISMI flat springs "conversion" in.

 

[BMCM]

- do you think this gun (Shorty) always had the stacking/binding issue with factory springs & you just noticed it?

I only really noticed this when I replaced the original springs. I installed a new set and immediately noted the dull thud as I exercised the slide fully to the rear. Sensing something was amiss I started measuring stuff and saw that the springs were too long, were binding and causing short stroking. Perhaps when these guns were built the springs were specifically tuned for these models or each model run. No way to tell since the PC of 20 years ago is long gone.

- were you able to get anything from S&W (the 3rd Gen. experts) as to whether the factory replacement spring dimensions changed causing this issue?

Nope. I have spoken with S&W reps countless times and they consistently decline to give me any measurement or dimensions on anything. Won't even confirm or deny accuracy of a measurement I have taken on one of my own guns. "We don't give out that kind of information" is the canned response.

- I'm guessing that guns vary in their thickness at the spring tunnel opening but the recoil spring should be designed to allow for this, within reason?

I don't think there's any problem with the guns. I think it's manufacturing variables in spring production. From the steel mill that draws the steel into wire and spools it to the contractor who winds that wire into finished springs. Could be tolerance stacking in production machinery or variables between the spring contractor of two decades ago and whoever is the current spring contractor. In any event, I don't get the impression that anything having to do with 3rd gens even 1st & 2nd gen for that matter is very high on the S&W list of stuff that needs doing. More likely it's on the list of stuff to ignore until it goes away.

I recently got a 1076 (single recoil spring) & ordered a compliment of replacement springs from Wolff for it before I shot it. After I put Wolff's standard 17# spring in & racked the slide I noticed it didn't feel/sound "right" when it stopped it's rearward motion. I remembered this thread & marked the slide/frame & found the slide was stopping about 1/2 a pencil mark's thickness too soon with the Wolff spring in, verses with no spring. I then put the gun's original spring (factory?) back in & it was actually a hair worse, instead of better. A heavier Wolff spring was no different either, of course.

Had the exact same experience with those springs in my 4566TSW a couple years ago. Factory springs were not available at the time so I ordered a couple standard weight plus a tuning pack and they were too big for the gun. Well, by the time I was nearing completion of that project I was able to source a couple OEM springs and that's what went in the gun.

Saw the same thing with my 4516-1 project. Extra power Wolff spring would bind so I left the original tired factory spring in there until I had sorted out the flatwire arrangement and turned a guiderod for it.

I don't have a new factory spring to try & I haven't measured the spring tunnel thickness (I don't know what a good measurement is anyway) but I'm wondering if I should try to cut a turn off of one of the springs to see if that helps? I think that's all it would take to allow it to stop on the frame.

That factory spring for your 1076 is S&W pn:895240000. I still have one or two here in the wrap. It's the exact same spring that's specified for my 4566TSW, also goes in the 4006TSW and the M4006CHP and a bunch of others. Basically, every one of the 4 inch forties and all the 4.25 inch 10mm's & 45's call for that spring. In my experience "one size fits all" doesn't always mean it's going to fit well in everything.

Don't get to wrapped around the axle with how thick the face of your spring tunnel is. The dimension you really need to know is how much room is actually in the gun for a spring, any spring, with the slide all the way back and bottomed against the frame's impact abutment.

Here's how to find that out... First your going to need a caliper. Dial or digital, it doesn't matter so long as you have the little rod that extends out of the end when you open the jaws. This enables you to take depth measurements.

Now we'll field strip our 4566TSW and first, measure the inside depth of the spring tunnel on the slide.

I get 0.693"

Now I'll measure the spring tunnel on the frame from the impact abutment to the lip where the guiderod sets. Like so.

Got 0.556 here.

Last measurement you need is the thickness of the head on your guiderod. Mine is 0.072"

Now I dust off my math skills
0.693+0.556=1.249-0.072=1.177

Now I know there is 1.177 inches for my recoil spring to live in with the slide all the way back hard against the frame. So any spring of the proper rating that stack less than 1.177 inches will fit in this gun. Your 1076 ought to pretty darn close to this.

A simple matter really to measure the springs to insure they fit.
Just multiply wire diameter my number of coils to find the stack height.
S&W pn: 895240000 26 coils of 0.0415 wire, stacks at 1.079 inch, this will fit ok

ISMI spring that's in the gun now: 36 coils of 0.026 flatwire,
stacks at 0.936, more spring in even less space, Me like

Wolff 17# spring 27 coils of 0.044 wire, stacks at 1.188 Houston, we have a problem Not going to run this one.
Sure, I could cut a coil or two off and make it work I just prefer closed coils on both ends when using roundwire springs. In fact, I recall something fastbolt posted recently about open coils doing strange things in these guns and tying them up hard. Like the open coil getting past the guiderod flange or working out the front the the slide. mechanically speaking, a closed coil isn't a spring anymore it's basically a washer or spacer. Even so I prefer a closed coil on each end. Although the flatwire springs seem much less susceptible to riding over or off the guiderod due to the nature of the wire. At least I've had no issue with the ones I've trimmed and run in the Shorty.

If you do cut a coil there's a couple things I recommend. Carefully debur the cut end so there are no sharp edges to damage your guiderod. If your gun has an aluminum guiderod I'd put the open coil on the guiderod first. I think you're less likely to have a problem if the open coil is not running along the length of the aluminum rod. If it's a one piece steel guiderod I think I'd put the open coil out at the muzzle end.

There's a tool used in the jewelry industry called a burr cup. It's basically a tiny cup shaped cutter you can spin in a Foredom or Dremel to debur and round over the cut end of a wire so it wont tear up stuff inside the gun. Very handy for cleaning up cut ends. Just be sure the get the size that will fit the spring wire you're working with.

Cheers
Bill

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Spring tunnel length

Thanks for the info & detailed response!

I'll measure my 1076's spring tunnel & let you know what it is, FWIW.

.

Had the exact same experience with those springs in my 4566TSW a couple years ago. Factory springs were not available at the time so I ordered a couple standard weight plus a tuning pack and they were too big for the gun. Well, by the time I was nearing completion of that project I was able to source a couple OEM springs and that's what went in the gun.

Saw the same thing with my 4516-1 project. Extra power Wolff spring would bind so I left the original tired factory spring in there until I had sorted out the flatwire arrangement and turned a guiderod for it.

Haven't run into this until now, with the Wolff springs, & I've installed them (standard & extra-power) in every single recoil spring 3rd Gen. gun we've got, but now we know what to look for, just in case, thanks to your post.

.

That factory spring for your 1076 is S&W pn:895240000. I still have one or two here in the wrap. It's the exact same spring that's specified for my 4566TSW, also goes in the 4006TSW and the M4006CHP and a bunch of others. Basically, every one of the 4 inch forties and all the 4.25 inch 10mm's & 45's call for that spring. In my experience "one size fits all" doesn't always mean it's going to fit well in everything.

That is strange, I didn't know that. It's kinda like the magazine springs in the 45's. All the magazines use the same PN# 262600000, irregardless of the round count.

.

If you do cut a coil there's a couple things I recommend. Carefully debur the cut end so there are no sharp edges to damage your guiderod. If your gun has an aluminum guiderod I'd put the open coil on the guiderod first. I think you're less likely to have a problem if the open coil is not running along the length of the aluminum rod. If it's a one piece steel guiderod I think I'd put the open coil out at the muzzle end.

I ran into this with Wolff's 21# spring (see attached) I had ordered in their tuning set for my 4516-1. That spring didn't have a closed end on both ends, unlike all the others I've ever gotten from them. At first they said it was a bad spring & sent me another, which was exactly the same. Then they said that was what their spec called for & it was probably cut to obtain the 21# rating. When I tried it, I rounded the cut wire's end & then, using two needle-nose pliers, I turned the end in to give the spring a flatened end, as to not gouge the slide's spring tunnel seat. So far it's been fine.

.
.

On the subject of spring cross referencing, I'd make myself dizzy (easy for me) trying to keep things straight, especially with multiple models using the same PN#, so I made a list cross referencing S&W & Wolff PN#s for some of mine. I've attached it here in case anyone else finds it useful.

.

 

[18DAI]

Thanks BMCM!

I will hold onto that package till next week then and give the spring a try. Thanks again for your work and patience in explaining all this to us!! Best regards, 18DAI

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Spring Tunnel Length (the bind) - Part Deux

I'll measure my 1076's spring tunnel & let you know what it is, FWIW.

I went ahead & checked the available spring space dimensions in my 1076 today. When I did it like you did I came up with 1.214" of spring space. (0.702" + .564" - .052": spring tunnel + abutment-flgr.seat - flgr.flange). The Wolff 20# spring I wanted to use has (27) turns @ .0445" = 1.2015" compressed length. So these figures would indicate that the slide would not stop on the spring, but I knew it was, just barely. I double checked all the readings but they came out essentially the same. (The .564" reading was the only one that wasn't consistent.)

For the heck of it I decided to try a different way, which I figured would be a good double-check & is a little more straightforward. With the slide off & the barrel & spring removed, I put the largest plug gage that would fit (.425") in the spring tunnel & slide it forward until it butted up against the inside of the spring tunnel's seat. Then I measured the thickness of the spring tunnel's seat, from the face of the pin gage (inside the slide) to the face of the muzzle (.178"). Then I placed the guide rod (FLGR) flange in it's seat in the frame & assembled the slide on the frame, with the FLGR existing it's hole in the spring tunnel muzzle. With the slide all the way rearward, & with the slide contacting the frame abutment, I pressed the end of the FLGR rearward, to fully compress it's spring loaded tip, & marked the FLGR with a Ultra Fine Sharpie where it exited the spring tunnel. Lastly I removed the FLGR & measured from that mark to the FLGR's flange face, & got 1.381", then subtracted the spring tunnel's thickness, .178" & got 1.203".

Either way I check it, it's a close fit, so I decided to cut (1) turn off the muzzle end (large closed end) of the 20# Wolff spring (the small closed end goes toward the FLGR flange), smooth out the cut wired end & then bend the end inward, to give it a flat(ter) surface as to not gouge the spring tunnel seat, & reassembled it. Walla, now the slide clearly stops on the frame, not the spring. I'm sure I could have just cut one turn off to try it first, since I knew it was just a hair off, but I wanted to see what the numbers looked like before, just for the halibut. Went to the range today & fired 125 rds. of assorted bullets/powder without issue. Spent cases from full power loads still obtain low-earth orbit, but oh well. Issue resolved.

 

[BMCM]

I went ahead & checked the available spring space dimensions in my 1076 today. When I did it like you did I came up with 1.214" of spring space. (0.702" + .564" - .052": spring tunnel + abutment-flgr.seat - flgr.flange). The Wolff 20# spring I wanted to use has (27) turns @ .0445" = 1.2015" compressed length. So these figures would indicate that the slide would not stop on the spring, but I knew it was, just barely. I double checked all the readings but they came out essentially the same. (The .564" reading was the only one that wasn't consistent.)

For the heck of it I decided to try a different way, which I figured would be a good double-check & is a little more straightforward. With the slide off & the barrel & spring removed, I put the largest plug gage that would fit (.425") in the spring tunnel & slide it forward until it butted up against the inside of the spring tunnel's seat. Then I measured the thickness of the spring tunnel's seat, from the face of the pin gage (inside the slide) to the face of the muzzle (.178"). Then I placed the guide rod (FLGR) flange in it's seat in the frame & assembled the slide on the frame, with the FLGR existing it's hole in the spring tunnel muzzle. With the slide all the way rearward, & with the slide contacting the frame abutment, I pressed the end of the FLGR rearward, to fully compress it's spring loaded tip, & marked the FLGR with a Ultra Fine Sharpie where it exited the spring tunnel. Lastly I removed the FLGR & measured from that mark to the FLGR's flange face, & got 1.381", then subtracted the spring tunnel's thickness, .178" & got 1.203".

Either way I check it, it's a close fit, so I decided to cut (1) turn off the muzzle end (large closed end) of the 20# Wolff spring (the small closed end goes toward the FLGR flange), smooth out the cut wired end & then bend the end inward, to give it a flat(ter) surface as to not gouge the spring tunnel seat, & reassembled it. Walla, now the slide clearly stops on the frame, not the spring. I'm sure I could have just cut one turn off to try it first, since I knew it was just a hair off, but I wanted to see what the numbers looked like before, just for the halibut. Went to the range today & fired 125 rds. of assorted bullets/powder without issue. Spent cases from full power loads still obtain low-earth orbit, but oh well. Issue resolved.

I tried several different methods for measuring internal spring space. I found the most consistent and accurate results from the method illustrated in my previous post.

I've often found that springs will actually bind a bit longer than the paper calculations indicate. Small variations in the wire diameter along the length of the spring a thousandth or two here and there adds up. I've also had pay special attention to count the coils accurately. It's quite easy to miscount at the closed coil ends and be short by one coil due to overlooking a half wrap at a closed end.

You know, If I were in your place I would give one of these a try for hotrod 10mm stuff
ISMI Glock Full Size 24lb Recoil Spring G17,17L,20,21,22,24,31,34,35,37

Just need a solid stainless guiderod turned down to about 0.255ish and it'll be silky smooth. I may have a spare guiderod around here somewhere that'll fit your 1076. Let me know if you'd like to give it a shot.

I did one for my 4566TSW and have one of those springs at 20# rating in there now. Works fine Keep in mind, all the 4.25inch large frame guns used the same factory spring so I think you'd be golden in the 20# to 24# range. Another thing you can do that will shave off some slide velocity and tame violent ejection is install a heavier mainspring.

Cheers
Bill

 

[BLUEDOT37]

ISMI 24# flat spring

I understand what you're saying about the spring count. I kept looking at the closed double looped ends to make sure I was figuring it right (there I go getting dizzy again).

I've bought Wolff's recoil spring calibration pack (#13183) so I have a 22# I can still try. I also got their hammer spring pack #11412 (because I learned when I setup my Colt Series 70 to shoot 45 Super that besides a heavier recoil spring, & a small radiused firing pin stop, a stronger mainspring was needed.) which has a 22 & 23# extra power springs in it I can try.

I might try those ISMI 24# flat springs later though. Did you need to shortened them for the 4-1/4" bbl.?

I appreciate the offer for the FLGR but I know supply is limited & I'd hate to take something you might need later. I did, however, get an extra one (for unknown reason) in the 845's box. Of course it's longer (4.314" OAL, & .287" dia., solid SS) but it doesn't have the plunger & spring in it (I guess I could use my existing ones?). It looks unused & was in a small zip pouch with the number 23135 hand written on it. That number isn't in the S&W parts catalog but it looks the same as what's in the 845, if that's one that could be shortened & turned down instead?

 

[BMCM]

I might try those ISMI 24# flat springs later though. Did you need to shortened them for the 4-1/4" bbl.?

Nope, the 36 coil springs drop right in given the correct guiderod dimentions.

(4.314" OAL, & .287" dia., solid SS) ... if that's one that could be shortened & turned down instead?

Can easily be done and I have some spare plungers+springs too. If you want, you can send it to me and I'll fix it up.

Cheers
Bill

 

[BMCM]

I double checked all the readings but they came out essentially the same. (The .564" reading was the only one that wasn't consistent.)

I have another caliper that just doesn't fit well down inside the dust cover, that why I've been using the fowler digital. Anyway, if you're getting varyings result with your depth instrument you can try this.... Use the outer end of the dust cover as the reference. Take a measurement from there to the impact abutment and then another to the guiderod seat. The difference will give you the frame's spring tunnel depth.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Wow. Thanks for the write ups and photos. I just bought a Shorty 45 MK2 and was trying to get spare springs, but most places are out of stock.
I'll have to check on those ISMI CCF22's.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

I've looked for the CCR22 and keep getting springs for glocks, both the full size and the compact. I just want to make sure I'm getting the right ones. Should I get the 22lb for the compact?
Sorry I'm new to fitting springs, so I may have missed something.

 

[BMCM]

So I was told, those CCF22 springs were a special order item that was never payed for. So ISMI had a bunch of springs that didn't go to anything. I purchased 30 of them to fiddle with and with a little trim they work nicely in my Shorty.

These are just 1 coil shorter than compact Glock flatwire springs ISMI makes. Other than that, they are identical to the GLC22 spring you can get online from several sources.

I spoke with ISMI again today hoping they had a stocked item that would work without modification. Nope, the best we can do is what we have now. Either the 30 or 31 coil 22# spring trimmed to precisely 27 coils.

I'm not sure if ISMI has any more of the 30 coil units but the 31 coil springs are readily available all over, here's but one example.
ISMI Glock Compact 22lb Recoil Spring G19,23,25,32,38

You need to carefully trim these to 27 coils. I prefer using a "hard wire" cutter but a small cutoff wheel will also work. The cut end then will require some dressing to cleanup any burrs and sharp edges so as to NOT gouge anything once installed.

I use a small fine grit mounted stone like this to deburr. Shape of the stone isn't critical, this is just the one that was handy. Use low speed and take care not to let the stone hit anywhere but the end you're deburring.

Doesn't take much at all, just knock off all the sharp scratchy bits.

Then you need to thoroughly clean up the spring to remove any trace of grinding debris before you install it. You certainly don't want any metal dust or abrasive particles milling about inside your Shorty

I think it best here to orient the spring with the closed coil on the guiderod first and the cut end in the slide's spring tunnel.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

BMCM,
Thanks a lot!

 

[tom 45]

quide rod machining question

BMCM...
Did you do anything special to turn down the oversized guide rod and still have it fit (look) OK in the larger opening in the slide?
I just measured my 6906 guide rod and it looks about 0.290".
I'm worried that if I turn it to 0.250" for the entire length the face of the slide may look too "loose".

As to the CS9-CS45 springs I purchased the "Glock 17" spring with the idea of getting 2 springs out of it...

We'll see what happens!
Thanks again for all your reports on this subject.

Tom