Stopping Power-An Education

[silentflyer]

Great points, but then again, Elmer Kieth,Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Shelton, (the last two LEO's who had been there,done that, in the line of duty) where very instrumental in getting S&W and Remington to develope the .41 magnum, as a bridge beetween the .357 and .44 magnum.

 

[Chris L.]

Let me put it in plain terms. THE .38 SPECIAL IS AN ENEMIC ROUND!
It doesn't matter what you load it with! Is that clear?

I didn't ask for your personal feelings on the J-Frame or how "enemic" (anemic) the .38spl is. If you don't like them, don't use them, and don't carry them, then please don't give me any "advice" on them.

Is that clear?

And I certainly don't care for being spoken to like a child by some guy with a chip on his shoulder about J-Frames and .38spls.

You chose a J-Frame .38. Not me. Live with it.

Well... it seems YOU regret my choice far more then I do, and I'm willing to put forth the effort and make the best of it. And I don't have to "live with it" if it doesn't work out. What kind of advice is that?

And YOU asked for a specific "Self Defense Load" for it.
That's not asking for a magic bullet?

No... it isn't.

I already told you Wad Cutters were a good choice too. (that's a low recoil target round)

Thanks, but no thanks.

Emory
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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark[/QUOTE]

 

[Chris L.]

Most things in life involve compromise. If you carry a lightweight gun, and don't want to shoot "disagreeable" ammo, then you are limited, especially in ft. lbs. of energy.

Absolutely. Unless your live in a rural area, are LEO or a testosterone filled sado-masochist, I believe most people want to CC a lightweight gun.

Just pick out a non-+p 110-125 grain loading that isn't disagreeable and go with that. I keep the aforementioned BB158 grain hollow point +p in my steel frame j-frames. I keep 125 grain Golden Sabers in my alloy frame j-frames.

I'm finding out on my own that 110-130gr is the limit for me in a alloy frame snubbie. I tried some Hornady CD 110gr+P's once that didn't seem any heavier then the WWB 125-130gr target ammo I was shooting. I have some Corbon 125gr+P's now, but didn't try them yet.

 

[CowboyKen]

Shot placement is King.

Penetration is Queen.

All else is dancing on the he head of a pin.

Ken

 

[Kanewpadle]

Never fails! Some people just have to argue about caliber.

Go somewhere else and argue!

And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!

He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!

 

[Cyrano]

Chris642: In my 638 I carry the Speer 'short barrel" Gold Dot. It's a 135 gr bullet I think, but both bullet and powder are specifically engineerd for maximum effectiveness in snubbies. I've only fired a few rounds; the recoil isn't too bad, and in combat with adrenalin dripping from the end of my nose, I don't think I'd notice it. I practice with a 150 gr cast bullet and 3.2 grs of W 231.

 

[redlevel]

I really don't see how the video settles anything, by the way. We all know that bullet placement is the most important factor. Bullet shape, weight, caliber, performance in tissue, and ft. lbs. of energy expended in the target are also factors. There is still plenty of room for argument concerning all the factors except bullet placement.

Never fails! Some people just have to argue about caliber.

Go somewhere else and argue!

And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!

He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!

And my point was that, yes!, he made that point!

My other point was that I didn't see a thing in the video (even though I thought it was well made and the info was well presented) that "just maybe . . . . . will put a stop to the caliber debate"

I still adhere to John Linebaugh's "bigger hammer" theory, whether the target is game or human.

 

[crofoot629]

What makes you think I don't carry .38 J-frames?
I do. But I know their limits. Unlike you who IS asking for advice.

Your questions clearly indicate your asking for guidance from more experienced people on this Forum. I seem to fill that bill. You don't like my delivery of the facts?

When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County we frequently changed carry loads. Sometimes based on a "better" load, and sometimes based on supply and cost. I learned a long time ago within certain specs there was no one best load. It seems you'd like to think there is?

Emory

Emory

I didn't ask for your personal feelings on the
J-Frame or how "enemic" (anemic) the .38spl is. If you don't like them, don't use them, and don't carry them, then please don't give me any "advice" on them.

And I certainly don't care for being spoken to like a child by some guy with a chip on his shoulder about J-Frames and .38spls.

Well... it seems YOU regret my choice far more then I do, and I'm willing to put forth the effort and make the best of it. And I don't have to "live with it" if it doesn't work out. What kind of advice is that?

No... it isn't.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Emory
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark

[/QUOTE]

 

[Chris L.]

Chris642: In my 638 I carry the Speer 'short barrel" Gold Dot. It's a 135 gr bullet I think, but both bullet and powder are specifically engineerd for maximum effectiveness in snubbies. I've only fired a few rounds; the recoil isn't too bad, and in combat with adrenalin dripping from the end of my nose, I don't think I'd notice it. I practice with a 150 gr cast bullet and 3.2 grs of W 231.

I've heard about this round and seen it on Youtube. It seems quite impressive. I would like to try it but it looks like I will have to order online.

 

[Kanewpadle]

And my point was that, yes!, he made that point!

My other point was that I didn't see a thing in the video (even though I thought it was well made and the info was well presented) that "just maybe . . . . . will put a stop to the caliber debate"

I still adhere to John Linebaugh's "bigger hammer" theory, whether the target is game or human.

Yes, glad you got it.

His point is that with PROPER shot placement, caliber just doesn't matter.

And he also brought up a point which is seldom discussed in caliber wars. And that is the ability to hit effectively with follow up shots with your chosen caliber.

 

[Chris L.]

What makes you think I don't carry .38 J-frames?
I do. But I know their limits. Unlike you who IS asking for advice.

Your questions clearly indicate your asking for guidance from more experienced people on this Forum. I seem to fill that bill. You don't like my delivery of the facts?

When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County we frequently changed carry loads. Sometimes based on a "better" load, and sometimes based on supply and cost. I learned a long time ago within certain specs there was no one best load. It seems you'd like to think there is?

I believe there is a "best" .38spl SD load for an alloy snubbie as far as recoil and control go, as I found out through personal experience. I'm looking for the best compromise, and I'm narrowing my selections down to four. You say they are all "anemic" and it doesn't matter which load I use. These sound like comments from someone who doesn't use, or doesn't care about the .38spl, and are not very helpful to me.

For example, I've found the recoil on the Hornady 158gr standard pressure I tried was noticeably harsh compared to the 110gr from the same manufacturer, even their 110gr+P's were easier to handle. So it does indeed matter. Maybe not so much in the days of the old FBI load and full steel frame revolvers, but these light alloy/polymer guns are a different beast.

If your talking about which .38spl load has the best stopping power, that has little consequence for me if I can't shoot it well.

 

[redlevel]

His point is that with PROPER shot placement, caliber just doesn't matter.

I listened again. Actually, for the third time.

I never heard him say that caliber "just doesn't matter," even with proper shot placement.

I don't think he even implied that. He said, in effect, if you can't control a .45, if all you can hit with a .45 is the wall, then you might well be better served with a 9mm. I agree with that.

I also heard him say, several times, "a bigger bullet is a better bullet."

 

[Kanewpadle]

I listened again. Actually, for the third time.

I never heard him say that caliber "just doesn't matter," even with proper shot placement.

I don't think he even implied that. He said, in effect, if you can't control a .45, if all you can hit with a .45 is the wall, then you might well be better served with a 9mm. I agree with that.

I also heard him say, several times, "a bigger bullet is a better bullet."

Yes but he showed the area of the body that we need to hit to get EFFECTIVE hits. He also compared the diameter of a few rounds. To me, he was talking about proper placement even though he didn't say it.

Yes, bigger is better. But only if you hit were your supposed to and only if you can control the firearm.

What he was trying to say is that the caliber argument isn't as important as shot placement.

 

[Lenny_D]

Chris642,
I also carry the 135gr. +P Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo in my 442. I don't think its all that bad as far as recoil and as Cyrano has already stated its made for the snubs. I like it because it hits targets at about the same place as my 158 gr. lead SWCHP practice loads.
Len

 

[mc5aw]

Caliber bickering aside, I think his final comment was most important ... practice. In all actuality, how many handgun owners/carriers devote enough time to practice? Forum members excluded because we are in the minority. Without significant practice time to become competent with a chosen handgun, ballistics mean nothing.

 

[novalty]

All this pointing makes me feel like I'm at a gunshow.

 

[Lost Lake]

My take on it is this:

Sure placement matters, but I also want my bad shots to inflict damage. So while a .22 to the head is good, a .22 to the thigh may not be. A .45 to the head is good, and a .45 to the thigh might be very good too!

I figure 9mm is the least powerful round I want to use for self defense. Typically I believe in having 300ft/lbs or more of energy. However, some .38+P rounds can reach well past 300ft/lbs, so to say the .38 is a poor choice would not hold true for me. FOR ME, that is.

I carry what I like. I have a .380 in my truck (I think it is underpowered) and anything from a 9mm to a .45 on my hip. As long as I can hit what I want and it has enough power to damage, I'm happy.

 

[Stophel]

I don't want a magic bullet (when did I say that?), I just want one I can control. 158gr+p semi wadcutters may be fine in a larger, steel frame revolver, but everything I tried in my lightweight 642 and LCR over 130gr has been disagreeable to say the least.

Like I said, it's hard to get any kind of useful info on the subject. Most just want to recommend the biggest and the baddest, irrespective of the needs of the shooter.

Buffalo Bore's "+P" loads are pretty stout, especially from a small gun, and they do kick. I currently have their "standard pressure" 158 grain SWCHP loads in my Chief's Special. They're still pretty strong, compared to normal, modern .38 loadings (but apparantly about equal to the power level of standard ammo from 60+ years ago). They also make a "standard pressure" 150 grain hard cast wadcutter load at a respectable 850+fps (from a 2" revolver), which I have recently become intrigued with, but have yet to try. I believe it would be an excellent choice. Only way to find out if it is controllable for you is to buy some and give it a shot.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111

Getting something sufficiently fast/powerful/heavy to give proper penetration is just naturally going to cause higher recoil.

I think standard, "mid range" wadcutters are just too slow to sufficiently penetrate reliably, BUT, if all you can control are mid range wadcutters, they would be way better than misses with a .44 (or even hits with a .32!)

 

[keith44spl]

I watched the vid several times....

Caught a few tidbits of outhouse wisdom in there........

Confidence in your chosen caliber, along with the ability to deliver strike(s)
in the most advantageous region of the target area (i.e. center mass).

Sufficient velocity to obtain desired depth of penetration of
said round to deliver a degree of terminal ballistics to/on target area is a consideration.



On the other hand,
As some of old dogs, that have first hand experience with our favorite or less than favorite projectile launching platform.

Have developed strong opinions of what we feel works in most cases or will meet our own minimum requirements to do so.

Through decades of trial and errors, I have come the the end of the caliber debate for
my own personal choices of rounds and handguns to carry for same.


Years ago, after having success in saving my own hide...I thought the light weight hollow point Super Vel loading in 38 Special
as well as the .357 Magnum were the bee's knees.

After more first hand knowledge of how the fast hollow point
bullets worked and or more importantly, did not expand as advertized....
I dallied with the sharp shouldered SWCs in both solid and HP forms.

So after an almost half century of kicking all this around and around, what I have found...........Was this;


Shot placement is a great crutch to lean on and really looks good on the static firing range on the B-27 targets....
Not so pretty in real live after action reports.

Sometimes that perfect center mass opportunity never presents itself, the antagonist(s) is on the move...your moving, duckin', dodgin', etc...



**
I only tell this because it's what happens in the real world, (and the shooter wasn't injured all that bad).

Myself and two other officers were engaged by a single shooter...Our BG shoots several round at your's truly...
I take exception to that....jest about every time now'n days.

I return fire, hit BG in right forearm causing him to throw his gun down and give up the fight.


The point is...It's just hard to predict what will happen,
one or another will take a hell of a lot of stopping, others are just about ready to quit before it begins.


I have cartridge(s) and firearm(s) that I have personal or proven confidence in and carry 'em religiously,

I'm purty much fixed.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[mc5aw]

What mi amigo, Dave, said. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.