Maybe, just maybe this will put a stop to the caliber debate.
This the best explanation ever.
Stopping Power - YouTube
This the best explanation ever.
Stopping Power - YouTube
Stopping Power-An Education
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Rufus
Member
Great post!!
Sounds good to me.
OP
Only service calibers matter. IMO, those you mention don't.
The video demonstrates that caliber is a very small part of the equation. So small that it's not worth arguing about.
David LaPell
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There will never be an end to the caliber wars. It's just like asking car guys which is better, asking beer guys if it tastes great or it's less filling, etc. Personally I have been saying what this guy has said for years, and I have done research granted nothing to his scale but I remember the old saying, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44. I think as long as gun magazines advertise and have some writers that seem to "prefer" one caliber over the other, then you will have some that take their lead and go with it. Elmer Keith like the .44 Magnum, Skeeter preferred the .357, Jeff Cooper had his .45 ACP and they all have their own loyal followers. Today its the same. I know some who own .45's and to them that's it and that's all. I know some who really like the .40 and others who like the 9mm. To me, I carry what I can shoot the best. I have had them all, and I shoot the .357 Magnum the best so that's what I carry the most often. If I shot the .45 the best I would carry that, but I don't so I carry the .357. My wife prefers the .38 Special and she has shot the big bores, and doesn't like them. I don't tell her the .38 is underpowered, I let her shoot what she shoots the best.
Dude! What does this OLD fossil-guy know! Anyone would know that a 10mm Glock (with a PUNISHER sticker on the butt) is the MOST awsomest.
We now return to reality.......................
Thanks for posting that, it's going on my permanent list of youtube reference.
We now return to reality.......................
Thanks for posting that, it's going on my permanent list of youtube reference.
Moonman
Member
Any caliber that is carried, even a 22, 25, or a 32 would be WAY AHEAD of any caliber firearm that YOU LEFT AT HOME.
The deal gets even better if you can shoot it VERY WELL AND ACCURATELY.
The deal gets even better if you can shoot it VERY WELL AND ACCURATELY.
My son (11) asked if his M&P15-22 would be a suitable defense weapon for him.
I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.
My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.
We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.
I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun.
I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.
My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.
We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.
I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
In other news water was found to be wet.
Emory
Emory
gdnagle
US Veteran
From Modern Defensive Training Systems, LLC
Wound Ballistics 101
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
Looks to be same info but in wrighting. And I agree with David LaPell no matter what calibre if you are not good with it or don't carry it does no good.
Wound Ballistics 101
http://www.mdtstraining.com/Wound_Ballistics_101.pdf
Looks to be same info but in wrighting. And I agree with David LaPell no matter what calibre if you are not good with it or don't carry it does no good.
Handgun stopping power
is not that great to begin with. Survival from a handgun shot depends on many things, mind set, individuals training, and where you are shot.
In general about 80% seem to survive a gunshot wound from a handgun. Rifle lower, and shotgun considerably lower.
A good friend and retired Detroit cop, says that a 12ga DB loaded with slugs always exited the vehicle with him.
is not that great to begin with. Survival from a handgun shot depends on many things, mind set, individuals training, and where you are shot.
In general about 80% seem to survive a gunshot wound from a handgun. Rifle lower, and shotgun considerably lower.
A good friend and retired Detroit cop, says that a 12ga DB loaded with slugs always exited the vehicle with him.
Rather then arguing about which caliber is best, I'm more interested in finding out which grain weight, load and manufacturer is optimal for my chosen gun and caliber, the snub nose revolver chambered for .38spl+p. It's sometimes difficult to get good info when I post without the "caliber wars" starting.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
That's because it's a 38 Special.
Which means as much as you want a magic bullet, there isn't one. Waddcutters to +P 158 Grn lead hollow points don't REALLY make that much difference. That was kind of the point of the video.
But for what it's worth, Buffalo Bore's +P Lead 158 Grn Hollow Point is not a bad choice.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
Emory
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I don't want a magic bullet (when did I say that?), I just want one I can control. 158gr+p semi wadcutters may be fine in a larger, steel frame revolver, but everything I tried in my lightweight 642 and LCR over 130gr has been disagreeable to say the least.
Like I said, it's hard to get any kind of useful info on the subject. Most just want to recommend the biggest and the baddest, irrespective of the needs of the shooter.
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Most things in life involve compromise. If you carry a lightweight gun, and don't want to shoot "disagreeable" ammo, then you are limited, especially in ft. lbs. of energy. Just pick out a non-+p 110-125 grain loading that isn't disagreeable and go with that.
I keep the aforementioned BB158 grain hollow point +p in my steel frame j-frames. I keep 125 grain Golden Sabers in my alloy frame j-frames.
I really don't see how the video settles anything, by the way. We all know that bullet placement is the most important factor. Bullet shape, weight, caliber, performance in tissue, and ft. lbs. of energy expended in the target are also factors. There is still plenty of room for argument concerning all the factors except bullet placement.
ColbyBruce
Member
One of my two Glock 26's, "Scarface", sat in a property/evidence room in Florida for nearly six years. Well worth the $257.00 I gave for it.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
Let me put it in plain terms. THE .38 SPECIAL IS AN ENEMIC ROUND!
It doesn't matter what you load it with! Is that clear?
You chose a J-Frame .38. Not me. Live with it.
And YOU asked for a specific "Self Defense Load" for it.
That's not asking for a magic bullet?
I already told you Wad Cutters were a good choice too. (that's a low recoil target round)
Emory
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Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark
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silentflyer
Member
Great points, but then again, Elmer Kieth,Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Shelton, (the last two LEO's who had been there,done that, in the line of duty) where very instrumental in getting S&W and Remington to develope the .41 magnum, as a bridge beetween the .357 and .44 magnum.
I didn't ask for your personal feelings on the J-Frame or how "enemic" (anemic) the .38spl is. If you don't like them, don't use them, and don't carry them, then please don't give me any "advice" on them.
And I certainly don't care for being spoken to like a child by some guy with a chip on his shoulder about J-Frames and .38spls.
Well... it seems YOU regret my choice far more then I do, and I'm willing to put forth the effort and make the best of it. And I don't have to "live with it" if it doesn't work out. What kind of advice is that?
No... it isn't.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Emory
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Absolutely. Unless your live in a rural area, are LEO or a testosterone filled sado-masochist, I believe most people want to CC a lightweight gun.
I'm finding out on my own that 110-130gr is the limit for me in a alloy frame snubbie. I tried some Hornady CD 110gr+P's once that didn't seem any heavier then the WWB 125-130gr target ammo I was shooting. I have some Corbon 125gr+P's now, but didn't try them yet.
CowboyKen
Member
Shot placement is King.
Penetration is Queen.
All else is dancing on the he head of a pin.
Ken
Penetration is Queen.
All else is dancing on the he head of a pin.
Ken
OP
Never fails! Some people just have to argue about caliber. 
Go somewhere else and argue!
And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!
He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!
Go somewhere else and argue!
And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!
He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!
Chris642: In my 638 I carry the Speer 'short barrel" Gold Dot. It's a 135 gr bullet I think, but both bullet and powder are specifically engineerd for maximum effectiveness in snubbies. I've only fired a few rounds; the recoil isn't too bad, and in combat with adrenalin dripping from the end of my nose, I don't think I'd notice it. I practice with a 150 gr cast bullet and 3.2 grs of W 231.
Never fails! Some people just have to argue about caliber.
Go somewhere else and argue!
And those of you advocating shot placement, OF COURSE!!
He made that point or weren't you paying attention!!
And my point was that, yes!, he made that point!My other point was that I didn't see a thing in the video (even though I thought it was well made and the info was well presented) that "just maybe . . . . . will put a stop to the caliber debate"
I still adhere to John Linebaugh's "bigger hammer" theory, whether the target is game or human.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
What makes you think I don't carry .38 J-frames?
I do. But I know their limits. Unlike you who IS asking for advice.
Your questions clearly indicate your asking for guidance from more experienced people on this Forum. I seem to fill that bill. You don't like my delivery of the facts?
When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County we frequently changed carry loads. Sometimes based on a "better" load, and sometimes based on supply and cost. I learned a long time ago within certain specs there was no one best load. It seems you'd like to think there is?
Emory
Emory
I do. But I know their limits. Unlike you who IS asking for advice.
Your questions clearly indicate your asking for guidance from more experienced people on this Forum. I seem to fill that bill. You don't like my delivery of the facts?
When I was a Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County we frequently changed carry loads. Sometimes based on a "better" load, and sometimes based on supply and cost. I learned a long time ago within certain specs there was no one best load. It seems you'd like to think there is?
Emory
Emory
[/QUOTE]
I've heard about this round and seen it on Youtube. It seems quite impressive. I would like to try it but it looks like I will have to order online.
OP
My other point was that I didn't see a thing in the video (even though I thought it was well made and the info was well presented) that "just maybe . . . . . will put a stop to the caliber debate"
I still adhere to John Linebaugh's "bigger hammer" theory, whether the target is game or human.
Yes, glad you got it.
His point is that with PROPER shot placement, caliber just doesn't matter.
And he also brought up a point which is seldom discussed in caliber wars. And that is the ability to hit effectively with follow up shots with your chosen caliber.
