Straw Purchase

[25elk]

Today the Supreme Court hears arguments in a case where a LEO purchased a firearm for his uncle and it was considered a straw purchase just as if the purchase was made for a total stranger. The US Justice Dept. is really pushing on this one and it's outcome could have a dramatic effect on future purchases for family members as gifts, first guns, etc. This bears watching.

 

[steelslaver]

Some of it is ridiculous.

Last fall right before hunting season my nephew who had helped me build my house asked if I had a rifle he could use during hunting season. I said no because I use my 308 for deer and my 338 for elk and the rest of my rifles are heavy barreled varmint calibers. But, while I was in a larger town I stopped at a gun shop and saw a decent used 7mm mag. at a good price. Rings, but no scope, while looking at scopes I mentioned my nephew needed a rifle to use during hunting season. Then after deciding not to get a scope there, I said would take the rifle and pulled out my concealed permit as an ID because in MT there is no check if you have that. He wouldn't sell me the rifle, said nephew would have to come in if it was for him. Said rifle was for me and I was going to lend it to nephew, which was true. He didn't want to hear it and I quickly realized the guy thought I was trying to set him up. I just walked away because I knew I wasn't going to change him mind. Poor state of affairs when they have businesses so scared that just the mention of another person caused him to back away from a sale. Back home I discussed it with a friend who has an FFL and he said I probably nailed what happened.

I realize that my buying a gun for someone else to evade the background check is illegal. I wasn't buy the rifle for him to own and never even intended to give away the gun. I figured a 7mm would be a handy extra rifle. At some point I may have sold it to him or let him earn it. I paid him for his previous efforts by getting him a truck. Even so I didn't know I couldn't buy a gun and then later sell it or give it away as a legitimate gift. I did learn once again not to talk so much.

 

[Wheeler57]

To be fair, when I make a FFL purchase one of the questions on the form is "are you buying this gun for yourself"? You can always lie and no one would probably be the wiser. But where do you draw the line that is ok? Your son, your uncle, your best friend, some friend you hardly know, some guy outside the store that asked you to come in and buy it for him?

 

[arjay]

My understanding is if they could pass the nics,then it's legal for me to buy it and give it to them.

 

[Wheeler57]

I prefer to purchase from an individual myself.
I am just asking where it is ok to draw the line. The form asks if I am buying the gun for myself. It doesn't ask if I am buying the gun for somebody I think will probably pass the background test.

 

[arjay]

They are looking for a straw purchase.ie you're buying it for them because they can't pass.

 

[KKECK5]

In Massachusetts I can buy a firearm and then give that firearm to someone as gift. but they must have a firearms license and I must transfer ownership to them via the appropriate form.

 

[gm272gs]

...they have businesses so scared that just the mention of another person caused him to back away from a sale...

I wouldn't say that the FFL-holders are scared, per se. My take on it is that if they are diligent, they can cut down on the biggest problem of the "wrong people" getting their hands on guns. Well, at least through quasi-legal means.

The ATF&E will tell you that nearly HALF of their firearms investigations are for guns purchased by a straw purchaser. Most FFL holders want to be a part of reducing that number, because it makes them feel like part of the solution and it helps to keep their business name out of the evening news.
In a successful straw purchase, the actual buyer is never specifically linked to the gun, but both the prohibited purchaser and the straw purchaser have committed a federal felony. The straw purchaser violates 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6)15 or 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A)16 by falsely stating or falsely providing evidence that he or she is the actual gun buyer, while the prohibited purchaser (usually the actual buyer) is criminally liable for aiding and abetting the straw purchaser in such violations or in "causing the making of the false statements".

Lying about this stuff is "punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and up to 10 years in prison."

Furthermore, if an FFL knew (or even suspected) that any statement on Form 4473 was false and that a straw purchase was taking place, the FFL has also violated federal law.
18 U.S.C. § 922(d) prohibits any individual "from selling a firearm to a person whom they know or have reason to know is a criminal or other prohibited buyer."

In theory, the FFL-holder can face the same punishment of "$250,000 and up to 10 years in prison."

Remember that the guy on the other side of the counter prints his name and signs his name in boxes 33 and 34 of your form 4473. In addition to a lot of things, he is CERTIFYING that it is his belief that "it is not unlawful for me to sell, deliver, transport, or otherwise dispose of the firearm(s) listed on this form to the person identified in Section A".

 

[Wheeler57]

I am not trying to be a jerk. I don't like anti gun regulations either. I am just saying that if your form is like mine and asks if you are buying a gun for yourself and you are not it is not true. I am not even saying not to do it. I am just saying if you do, do not be unaware that you are falsifying a government document. I don't know what penalty comes with that but I do know that if found out it is another example the liberals will throw in our face.
In most cases if you buy a gun and then give it to somebody, only you know if it was your intention to give it away when you bought it or whether you bought it for yourself then gave it away.

 

[gm272gs]

Also, anyone who has ever worked in a gun store and was trusted with doing transfers, can tell you that part of their training was to talk with the customer and get to know them. In talking to them, you are trained to ask certain leading questions that could possibly "trip up" a straw purchaser. In observing them, you also need to watch their actions around whomever they are with. Often, you can spot a guy pointing to a gun in the case and telling the guy he's with "that's the gun I want" and then the other guy says to you "I would like to buy that gun". Sometimes, your Spidey-sense doesn't tingle at all - until it comes time to pay for it - and the other guy hands the purchaser the money. In both scenarios, my answer is the same. "I'm sorry but I can't sell you this gun".

 

[smokindog]

Please read Instructions for Question 11A. I believe the difference shown between it being a straw purchase and a gift is the source of the money to buy the firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf


Excerpts

"You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party."

...

"However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual purchaser transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer YES to question 11.a."

 

[JJEH]

Well, if you buy a gun for your kids then hit "yes" on that form, they do a NICS and everything is fine. If you give the gun later to your kids is a personal transaction and the last time I checked those were still legal. But it's your name on the form and NICS.

Now if two buddies come in I would have an issue with one picking it out and the other one doing NICS.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Unfortunately, BATFE has become rather well known for sting operations and buy-bust investigations. Using confidential informants to make a purchase from a dealer for the specific purpose of taking administrative action against the licensee or for criminal prosecution of the seller, the CI has a carefully scripted role to play by letting it be known that he is actually purchasing a firearm for delivery to another person.

While it is unlawful to purchase a firearm for another person (straw purchase), it is equally unlawful for any person to knowingly deliver a firearm to one person for transfer to another person. Each party to such a transaction may face criminal prosecution. In the case of a FFL dealer, such a transaction occuring in the course of his business (even with an employee acting without the licensee's knowledge) is a slam-dunk FFL license revocation case.

If I were a FFL dealer I would be extremely cautious to avoid any such transaction, even to the point of calling law enforcement to investigate anything that remotely resembled a straw purchase scenario. Doing so would serve to create a public record of my efforts to fully comply with the law, admissable as evidence in any future case that might arise.

 

[glowe]

I mentioned my nephew needed a rifle to use during hunting season. He wouldn't sell me the rifle, said nephew would have to come in if it was for him.

I have an FFL and I would have reacted the same way. I understand you mis-spoke, but you can not state the gun was for someone else and walk out the door with it. Both you and the FFL would have violated the law. If you had originally said that the gun is for you and are buying it as a backup and may loan it to your nephew during deer season, probably is not a problem in MT, but may still be a gray area in some other states that do not allow anyone to borrow guns from others.

 

[Wheeler57]

Please read Instructions for Question 11A. I believe the difference shown between it being a straw purchase and a gift is the source of the money to buy the firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf


Excerpts

"You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party."

...

"However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual purchaser transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer YES to question 11.a."

Not sure of your interpretation.
Your PDF on item 11a states in BOLD
WARNING: YOU ARE NOT THE ACTUAL BUYER IF YOU ARE AQUIRING THE FIREARMS(S) ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER PERSON. IF YOU ARE NOT THE ACTUAL BUYER, THE DEALER CANNOT TRANSFER THE FIREARM(S) TO YOU

 

[smokindog]

Not MY form, it's the ATF form, complete with instructions and examples that fit this situation The excerpt you posted also says to read the instructions (the excerpts I posted) where it clearly calls out the the DEFINITION of actual buyer AND and an example for a gift purchase defining YOU as being the actual buyer.

I'm not trying to start any kind of problems and will back down after this post but I believe gift purchases are legitimate (as do dealers/FFL in my area).

Just trying to make sure we're not doing the job of others in restricting sales. As far as the form and as far as the dealers I've been involved with, there are legitimate GIFT purchases as outlined.

Not sure of your interpretation.
Your PDF on item 11a states in BOLD
WARNING: YOU ARE NOT THE ACTUAL BUYER IF YOU ARE AQUIRING THE FIREARMS(S) ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER PERSON. IF YOU ARE NOT THE ACTUAL BUYER, THE DEALER CANNOT TRANSFER THE FIREARM(S) TO YOU

 

[Wheeler57]

smokindog
I see your point.
I am not sure how the dealer can tell the difference though.
I got rid of my FFL years ago because I did not want to be liable for situations like that. A straw purchase could look the same unless you know the people.
Doesn't seem like there is a clean way to buy a gun for someone else.

 

[gm272gs]

smokindog is right. Gift purchases are different.

Here's an example: Have you ever been to a gun club dinner and purchased a raffle ticket for a gun drawing? When they buy those guns (for the raffle), they fill out a 4473 in their name. The firearm is then just given to you when you win the raffle - right there at the dinner. (unless your state requires a formal transfer, with another 4473 and NICS check.)

For the record, that's not how I would do it (if I were the raffle organizer). I would make it so that the raffle winner would have to pick up their firearm at an FFL, and fill out the 4473 and do the NICS check. That way, the gun club has some CYA to fall back upon. I would also make that raffle ticket non-transferrable. If the guy goes to pick up the firearm and gets denied by NICS, he can't give it to a buddy to pick up later. They should also make the conditions of buying a raffle ticket to be minimum age 21 and "able to legally possess a firearm" or words to that effect. (Age 21, if you are raffling both handguns and long guns, to cover yourself).

 

[glowe]

Here's an example: Have you ever been to a gun club dinner and purchased a raffle ticket for a gun drawing? When they buy those guns (for the raffle), they fill out a 4473 in their name. The firearm is then just given to you when you win the raffle - right there at the dinner.

It is against the law to do what you describe. If the gun was bought and went through a NICS check with the sole intention that it would be given to someone else at a raffle is illegal. Now if a gun owner had owned a gun for some time and wanted to give it or sell to a club member to raffle off, that is a private transfer and OK in most states.

 

[badge]

The law is the law,....... it's quite clear. Unless it's the Justice Dept. and Fast and Furious. Go figure.