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Survey for LEOs
- Thread starter martyd
- Start date
Australian Gun Laws make it difficult for anyone to own a firearm, even for a Police Officer. No matter if the officer is State or Federal (we don't have local Police Departments), they have to apply for a license like everyone else if they want to possess and shoot a private firearm. This not only includes licensing, but also gun registration, safe inspections and approvals, club membership, club training, and club competition participation (minimum 6 times a year for handguns).
With the Police Department I worked in (State Police - approx 14,000 Officers), maybe 500 had any experience with firearms or would have a Firearms License. Recruits that come from rural areas are more likely to have shot a gun at some stage before joining. For a lot of recruits, the first time they have ever fired a gun would have been during their academy training.
Some officers get interested in shooting while they are on the job. But when they see all the red tape they have to go through, most loss interest pretty quick. Apart from a yearly qualification, there is no other live-Fire training. As an officer, you could not even be allowed to go to a gun range and use your issued gun to practice. Even if you were fully licensed firearm owner, you still cannot use your own issue firearm to practice.
There are a couple of actual Police gun clubs (pistol, rifle, and shotgun) but their numbers are low. There's only about 60 members in the Police Pistol Club although some officers maybe members at other regional clubs or ranges.
It's always interesting when you go to a search warrant, firearms maybe located, and no one knows how to clear any of the offender(s) guns.
With the Police Department I worked in (State Police - approx 14,000 Officers), maybe 500 had any experience with firearms or would have a Firearms License. Recruits that come from rural areas are more likely to have shot a gun at some stage before joining. For a lot of recruits, the first time they have ever fired a gun would have been during their academy training.
Some officers get interested in shooting while they are on the job. But when they see all the red tape they have to go through, most loss interest pretty quick. Apart from a yearly qualification, there is no other live-Fire training. As an officer, you could not even be allowed to go to a gun range and use your issued gun to practice. Even if you were fully licensed firearm owner, you still cannot use your own issue firearm to practice.
There are a couple of actual Police gun clubs (pistol, rifle, and shotgun) but their numbers are low. There's only about 60 members in the Police Pistol Club although some officers maybe members at other regional clubs or ranges.
It's always interesting when you go to a search warrant, firearms maybe located, and no one knows how to clear any of the offender(s) guns.
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StrawHat
Member
First, congrats on earning the ribbon.
5/318? Not a very high percentage.
So, are you saying the percentage is higher or lower or ??
Kevin
31FordA
Member
I'd say that the majority of cops view a gun as one more thing they have to carry for work. I observed a pistol qualification a few years back where they asked the twenty or so deputies "How many of you have fired your pistol since last years qualification?", only one had. Most hadn't bothered to clean the pistol since qualifying the year before. As a range officer I get to observe several different agencies qualify each year, almost all have at least one officer who needs multiple attempts to qualify. The main problem is they only shoot when they qualify and forget what you teach them by the following year.
My little agency is an exception to the rule. Management gives us lots of practice ammo, and lets me take everyone to the range multiple times a year. A day at the range always beats a day at the office. I must be a good gun evangelist, all my guys are gun guys now. Our newest guy told me that when he was hired someone asked "How many guns do you own?", to which he replied "3". He was then told "You're working with Frank, you'll need 3 gun safes for all the extra guns you'll buy". He thought they were joking, but he's up to 15 guns or so now. My guys don't need multiple attempts to qualify.
My little agency is an exception to the rule. Management gives us lots of practice ammo, and lets me take everyone to the range multiple times a year. A day at the range always beats a day at the office. I must be a good gun evangelist, all my guys are gun guys now. Our newest guy told me that when he was hired someone asked "How many guns do you own?", to which he replied "3". He was then told "You're working with Frank, you'll need 3 gun safes for all the extra guns you'll buy". He thought they were joking, but he's up to 15 guns or so now. My guys don't need multiple attempts to qualify.
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Purely anecdotal, very dated, completely irrelevant, based on my subjective impression in a western state that wasn't Montana or Idaho but since the OP asked. About 75% of the officers in my department had moved there from out of state with prior LE experience. Many freely admitted that one motivation was the recreational opportunities, primarily hunting. I don't recall any of the native officers who didn't either hunt or shoot competitively or both. That recollection was reinforced by the competition for vacation days during deer and elk season.
OTOH, the department issued 100 rounds per month of practice ammo. I've lost count of how many boxes I received in exchange for trading days off. Some of the same officers who were avid hunters neglected their personally purchased duty weapons. Tools and sporting goods may be necessary for an activity without being valued. The department had 5 revolvers available for officers who did not wish to buy their own. Of 95 officers, one took them up on it.
If you can create a profile from that , have at it. While I generally agree that a department reflects its community, I don't believe that can be extrapolated outside the specific community. I would expect a different proportion of officers who owned recreational firearms in (e.g.) Berkeley, CA.
OTOH, the department issued 100 rounds per month of practice ammo. I've lost count of how many boxes I received in exchange for trading days off. Some of the same officers who were avid hunters neglected their personally purchased duty weapons. Tools and sporting goods may be necessary for an activity without being valued. The department had 5 revolvers available for officers who did not wish to buy their own. Of 95 officers, one took them up on it.
If you can create a profile from that , have at it. While I generally agree that a department reflects its community, I don't believe that can be extrapolated outside the specific community. I would expect a different proportion of officers who owned recreational firearms in (e.g.) Berkeley, CA.
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Your statement is inline with Muggins in that there is a high percentage of gun enthusiast in Montana across the board.
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There were 20 sworn personnel which included the Sheriff and supervisors in the department. 2 collected,2 hunters,3 shooters.
My class at the Police Training Institute was 36 of these myself and 3 others had been reserve officers. 2 with military training the rest had shot a firearm at all.
My class at the Police Training Institute was 36 of these myself and 3 others had been reserve officers. 2 with military training the rest had shot a firearm at all.
Nothing on paper. I was involved with the Caribou County SO during the 80's. Out of the Deputies, 6 shot in either IPSC occasionally. 6 hunted though they were not the same ones that shot IPSC. Those I have associated with in MT are generally in small towns and departments and I see a lot that shoot. I know two officers with active FFl's, both in larger cities.
I was a city cop for 30 years, retired in '97, and while I'm not sure of percentages most officers were not gun people. That said I also commanded our SWAT team and many of those officers were hunters & competitive shooters.
mdf9183
US Veteran
When I first joined the pd in 1969 we qualified every month 50 rds. at 50 yds. Then sometime in the 80s the city decided it was too expensive so we changed to qualifying once a year. Tactical course 3yds, 7yds. 15yds and 25 yds. it stayed like that until I retired I guess it still is. I had some land out in the country that we would go shoot at several times a month on weekends. I never was a hunter since in Texas that entails sitting in a tree and ambushing a deer when he walks by and that did not feel like hunting to me. I did shoot expert most of my career except at the end when I started slowing down. I always qualified with a S&W mod 19 that I carried since the 70s.
When I first came on in '64, we had a great deal of interest in shooting. But, we had many more military veterans then, some from WW II. Our range was open each month, and mandatory qualifications were twice a year.
The qualification ribbon WardenRoss mentions was an incentive, because there, on the shirt or jacket, was proof of shooting ability. With it came bragging rights. We shot at 50 yards back then. The highest qualification ribbon was 'Distinguished'. It required an average score of at least 97.5% for at least 10 shoots (out of 12) to earn. For people who were competitive by nature anyway, it was natural. But it was challenging.
During the peak of PPC shooting, the '60s - '70s, our medium size department sponsored three shooting teams.
Until about the late '70s, we bought our own revolvers, via a uniform/equipment allowance We had a substantial number of deputies who, rather than buying the most basic available revolvers, opted for adjustable sight 'K' and 'N' frame Smiths (this predated the 'L' frames), Colt Pythons and Troopers/357/OMMs, and then later on Ruger Security Sixes. The decision by the department to purchase and mandate carrying Smith 66s ended the era of carrying personally owned revolvers.
I can't say that half of our department were conservative and half liberal. I would characterize us generally as center/right or center, but not liberal. We may have had some recruits come on with liberal idealism. But, then as now, the same groups that demonize and vilify LE were on the left side of the spectrum. All of the violent social upheaval and riots (now termed 'mostly peaceful demonstrations') we policed then were from the left side of the spectrum. This reality had the effect of causing LEOs to become more conservative. Pretty tough to relate to those seeking to break your head open. This was not just my department, but all of LE with whom I had contact. So from my experience I reject OPs speculation.
As time passed interest in PPC competition and shooting in general waned. There were just too many other demands on time. Besides my LE job, I was also going to school and teaching. Once I had my advanced degree, my teaching commitments further expanded. Our department, along with other LE agencies in the region, placed great emphasis on formal education if one wanted to advance. Promotions were/are intensively competitive. If one walked into an oral board interview and had no degree past high school, and was not working on one, the conversation dried up pretty quickly.
So increasing various professional demands, along with the normal demands of raising a family, took a toll on available recreational (which is what PPC competition was) time.
Because I was teaching AJ classes in (among others) community colleges, I was getting a lot of young people who had graduated high school but who were too young to apply to become LEOs. Since I had a three semester sequence of classes, I got to know most of my students. My observation of them was they were not liberal, but more center and center right. This was regardless of ethnicity.
I taught in these venues until I retired in the mid '90s, and this demographic did not appear to change.
I did see less interest in earning that shooting qualification ribbon as time passed. Early on we still fired from 50 yards. But then the course was reduced to 25 yards max, and the score to qualify 'Distinguished' was lowered to 95%. Bragging rights, and the incentive to earn them, were reduced as a consequence.
Some context: I retired in '94. We immediately moved and live in a very remote mountain area, so I don't know where my old department, or LE in general, is now on any of these issues. Even my AJ kids who went on to LE careers have all retired.
The qualification ribbon WardenRoss mentions was an incentive, because there, on the shirt or jacket, was proof of shooting ability. With it came bragging rights. We shot at 50 yards back then. The highest qualification ribbon was 'Distinguished'. It required an average score of at least 97.5% for at least 10 shoots (out of 12) to earn. For people who were competitive by nature anyway, it was natural. But it was challenging.
During the peak of PPC shooting, the '60s - '70s, our medium size department sponsored three shooting teams.
Until about the late '70s, we bought our own revolvers, via a uniform/equipment allowance We had a substantial number of deputies who, rather than buying the most basic available revolvers, opted for adjustable sight 'K' and 'N' frame Smiths (this predated the 'L' frames), Colt Pythons and Troopers/357/OMMs, and then later on Ruger Security Sixes. The decision by the department to purchase and mandate carrying Smith 66s ended the era of carrying personally owned revolvers.
I can't say that half of our department were conservative and half liberal. I would characterize us generally as center/right or center, but not liberal. We may have had some recruits come on with liberal idealism. But, then as now, the same groups that demonize and vilify LE were on the left side of the spectrum. All of the violent social upheaval and riots (now termed 'mostly peaceful demonstrations') we policed then were from the left side of the spectrum. This reality had the effect of causing LEOs to become more conservative. Pretty tough to relate to those seeking to break your head open. This was not just my department, but all of LE with whom I had contact. So from my experience I reject OPs speculation.
As time passed interest in PPC competition and shooting in general waned. There were just too many other demands on time. Besides my LE job, I was also going to school and teaching. Once I had my advanced degree, my teaching commitments further expanded. Our department, along with other LE agencies in the region, placed great emphasis on formal education if one wanted to advance. Promotions were/are intensively competitive. If one walked into an oral board interview and had no degree past high school, and was not working on one, the conversation dried up pretty quickly.
So increasing various professional demands, along with the normal demands of raising a family, took a toll on available recreational (which is what PPC competition was) time.
Because I was teaching AJ classes in (among others) community colleges, I was getting a lot of young people who had graduated high school but who were too young to apply to become LEOs. Since I had a three semester sequence of classes, I got to know most of my students. My observation of them was they were not liberal, but more center and center right. This was regardless of ethnicity.
I taught in these venues until I retired in the mid '90s, and this demographic did not appear to change.
I did see less interest in earning that shooting qualification ribbon as time passed. Early on we still fired from 50 yards. But then the course was reduced to 25 yards max, and the score to qualify 'Distinguished' was lowered to 95%. Bragging rights, and the incentive to earn them, were reduced as a consequence.
Some context: I retired in '94. We immediately moved and live in a very remote mountain area, so I don't know where my old department, or LE in general, is now on any of these issues. Even my AJ kids who went on to LE careers have all retired.
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I'ma guess that this qualification occurred in the early 70's. I apologize if I'm wrong . . .
Appreciate the response. None of it is relevant to the OP's question, which admittedly doesn't arise until later in the post . . .
The days when you had to polish your shoes in order to pass briefing inspection.....or else [ ].
I didn't mind the shoes so much. It was the brass that was the PITA.
gunship
US Veteran
I agree with most that my department was 1/3 collectors, 1/3 hunters and 1/3 work tool. I didn't make enough to collect as I wanted but have a small collection now. Most of my department were veterans as was I from Vietnam. I served 30 years as a Township cop in NJ from the mountain area of north jersey, not the city area. Retired in early 2000's and never looked back.
OP
Thank all of you for your comments!!
I was not expecting this level of response, all of which is great information.
It confirms my beliefs that LEOs are ordinary people with ordinary interests.
Departments which are in States or areas in States which are outdoors oriented have a greater interest in outdoor activities, thus a greater number of folks interested in firearms. Just like their community folks.
Thanks again for sharing!
MartyD
I was not expecting this level of response, all of which is great information.
It confirms my beliefs that LEOs are ordinary people with ordinary interests.
Departments which are in States or areas in States which are outdoors oriented have a greater interest in outdoor activities, thus a greater number of folks interested in firearms. Just like their community folks.
Thanks again for sharing!
MartyD
prairieviper
Member
I can say that here in cornfields and cows country, there was a time when most law enforcement officers were gun enthusiasts. Back then, military service was mandatory due to the draft and law enforcement ranks were filled with veterans. In addition to that, most were outdoorsmen and enjoyed hunting or shooting, so an appreciation of firearms was natural.
Marksmanship badges worn on an officer's uniform were a source of pride then. I know that I was very proud to have earned a Master Revolver and later, Master Pistol badge.
Nowadays, it's a different culture.
Marksmanship badges worn on an officer's uniform were a source of pride then. I know that I was very proud to have earned a Master Revolver and later, Master Pistol badge.
Nowadays, it's a different culture.
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