Talk about reasons to buy a gun Update on Judge post 28

[steelslaver]

A while back there was a thread about 410 shotguns. Some one brought up the Yildiz .410 Side-By-Side and I liked it. But could not find it anywhere but Academy and none of those anywhere close to here. Looked around on all the online sites and nothing really rung my bell for what I was willing to pay. I see grouse and pheasants at close range in the places I hunt deer and elk and they make great camp fodder. A small compact 410 would be handy.

Anyway I was in a pawnshop I visit regularly and there is one of those stupid Taurus Judges with a 6" barrel. My brain starts to go hey that would work. I see birds closer than 15 yds all the time. Mountain grouse regularly run along in front of me never getting far ahead or very seldom flying. I ask for best price. Guy checks book and says $365. I hesitate say maybe later. I leave, get in car, start it up, shut it off go inside and buy it. Then find that 410 shells are hard to find right now.

As everyone knows I am a tinkerer. I have heard these pattern poorly and part of it is the rifling spinning the shot load. I have found a 3" barrel for $50. Run a reamer down it to just remove the rifling then make and harden a button to press though it to give it shallow rifling with say a 1 in a 100" twist. There is no requirement on either depth of rifling or rate of twist, just can be a smooth bore, It won't be.

 

[jc2721]

Have you tried patterning your (gasp!) Taurus yet?

 

[stanmerrell]

You got it good tripping over grouse and quail like that. Would like to see pictures.

 

[steelslaver]

When we were young kids we killed mountain grouse with rocks. I have have got a couple of sharptails too using rocks. Mountain grouse, spruce grouse especially tend to just run down the trail or go in a small tree and just sit there. They seldom fly far or high. In fact they seldom even fly. With a 12 gauge thee problem is getting them far enough a way so you don't destroy them. I have shot a few of them with a 22 pistol which is legal here.


Season Dates Bag Limit Additional Information
Mountain Grouse
Blue, Ruffed and Franklin's Grouse may be taken with a shotgun not larger than a 10 gauge; a long, recurve or compound
bow and arrow; a crossbow; a firearm; or air rifle: mountain grouse may be taken with an .177 caliber air rifle shooting a
performance ballistic alloy pellet at least 1250 feet per second as specified by the manufacturer or with an .22 caliber air rifle
shooting a performance ballistic alloy pellet at least 950 feet per second as specified by the manufacturer. All other means
of taking are prohibited

I guess technically rocks and sticks are illegal now.

 

[noonster]

Seems back-to-front to me: I usually have to go buy a gun to use the ammo I've gathered over time.

 

[steelslaver]

Have you tried patterning your (gasp!) Taurus yet?

I do plan to pattern the thing with the barrel that is on it, but with the
6 1/2" barrel it is over 13" long over all which isn't very handy. Be about like lugging around an 8 3/8" N frame. Dumping 3 1/2" of barrel would help make it more portable and if I miss with an 1 oz of shot at 15-20 yards with the same sight radius as a 5" gun I should not be shooting anything with a hand gun. It isn't like I can't put the 6 1/2" barrel back on. The thing don't even have a front lug on the barrel so once I know what threads it has I can make about any barrel I want. I have several pieces of 45 cal barrel blank and a lathe. I have 8 45 colts so I will not be looking at the Taurus for shooting those.

 

[steelslaver]

You got it good tripping over grouse and quail like that. Would like to see pictures.

Of grouse of the gun?

 

[smoothshooter]

Boring it out to smoothbore would make it illegal.
Boring it out to smoothbore and putting straight rifling inside-I don't know.
Do not know if Federal law requires spiral rifling or not. I'm guessing they do.
Others who know will chime in shortly.

 

[smoothshooter]

Boring it out to smoothbore would make it illegal.
Boring it out to smoothbore and putting straight rifling inside-I don't know.
Do not know if Federal requires spiral rifling or not.
I'm guessing the rifling must make a spiral. But what twist?
Others who know will chime in shortly.

 

[Buford57]

A few years ago my brother and I tried out our "snake guns" on 1 liter water bottles at 10 feet during deer season in MS. His was a 3" Judge with 21/2" .410 #9. Mine was a Ruger Vaquero 5 1/2 .45 Colt with my handloads topped with a Speer capsule filled with #7 1/2. If they had been snakes he'd a have been better off with a rock. I think one pellet penetrated. Mine had a satisfying (to me at least) pattern. Don't know if a copperhead is as tough as a water bottle.

I would think a revolver with a rifled barrel would be legal and a revolver without a barrel would be legal and a revolver with a rifled barrel again would be legal again.

 

[sigp220.45]

Sounds like a cool project to me. Two-groove, shallow rifling with a 1 in 36" twist would be legal and not fling shot every which-a-way.

 

[03hemi]

Just having the holster or ammo gives me a reason to buy a gun? lol

 

[Laketime]

Very clever and resourceful in what you did.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I suppose someone has to ask, so I will. Have you considered mounting a partridge front sight?

 

[steelslaver]

I suppose someone has to ask, so I will. Have you considered mounting a partridge front sight?

No those partridge are pretty flighty a grouse rib is what I am thinking.

Actually it has a dovetailed red tube that should work.

There is absolutely no law I can find in regards to how deep or how many lands and grooves the rifling has to be or the twist rate. I do not believe there is even a law that stated the barrel bore need to be smaller than the caliber. Look at the 45 colts with .458 throats and .452 rifling. .Would firing a 22 jet in a 357 be a felony? I doubt it.

keep in mind the twist rate on the 45-90 was 1 in 32 and some 45 cal muzzle loader barrels for balls used 1-72. A Some early guns were slower. I can give it a 1 in 100 twist in fact making it perfectly straight would be difficult.

Game Warden '' may I see your gun"? Me, "may I see you search warrant?" There is no magazine capacity restrictions on upland birds in Montana. Actually I would let him look. Think he is going to try to accurately measure the twist rate on a 3" barrel or even look down it?

No jury anywhere near here would convict you for shooting grouse with a slow twist rate. If charged for something so ignorant the only words they would hear from me are lawyer and jury

 

[Retired W4]

A friend did the same treatment to his Judge and it patterned great. 45 Colt was not very good but who cares?

 

[bigmtnman]

Way back when .... I bought one of the first Thompson Contenders in .410 /45 Long Colt with screw on outside choke. I thought it would be just the thing for squirrels ---- NOPE I found out I was just annoying squirrels with it. It wouldn't even break a glass milk bottle at 15 yards. I hate to think of all the people who have a .410 handgun loaded with pellets and think they have a good home defense weapon. They would be better off throwing it at the head of an intruder.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Way back when .... I bought one of the first Thompson Contenders in .410 /45 Long Colt with screw on outside choke. I thought it would be just the thing for squirrels ---- NOPE I found out I was just annoying squirrels with it. It wouldn't even break a glass milk bottle at 15 yards. I hate to think of all the people who have a .410 handgun loaded with pellets and think they have a good home defense weapon. They would be better off throwing it at the head of an intruder.

Interesting. In the early seventies, I had a T/C Contender in .44 Mag/.44 Hot Shot, produced shortly after ATF's visit to T/C concerning the .45/.410. The .44, of course, came with a shot straightener which clamped onto the muzzle when using shot loads. I don't recall having patterned it, but I did once, out on the water, fire one at a water moccasin at fairly close range. Witnesses said it cut him in half.

 

[Puller]

Every time I see someone with a Judge I think of James Caan's character "Mississippi" in the John Wayne flick El Dorado.

 

[Muley Gil]

There are lots of shot-out Colt and S&W 1917 barrels out there. Don't know if you re-thread one to fit a Judge or not.

 

[steelslaver]

There are lots of shot-out Colt and S&W 1917 barrels out there. Don't know if you re-thread one to fit a Judge or not.

Ya, I have a 1917 barrel that lead a hard life. I now have the 3" barrel in hand. Have not measured the threads, but I could probably make the 1917 barrel fit the Judge frame. But, then I could just use a piece of 4140 round stock if I wanted.

I am going to chase down some 410 shot shells and pattern the 6 1/2" barrel first. Then either ream out or use emery on a split rod and a drill to erase the rifling in 3" barrel. Take a small square file and make 4 shallow but easily visible grooves back in. Top bottom and sides, angling the file a tiny bit. Then install it and pattern it again.

I know it isn't going to have much range. But with 3" loads using 6 shot I wouldn't be surprised if ir killed small game at 20 yds. I will test it to see what it will penetrate before I shot anything with it. Bird feathers are tougher than rabbit skin, but will see how much paper it will penetrate at what range and how dense the pattern is. Might only be a reliable 15 yard gun.

But, from an article in NRA shooting illustrated "Remington's 2 1⁄2-inch, 1⁄2-ounce, No. 8 shot .410-bore game load produced a muzzle velocity of 1,180 fps. Penetration ranged from 3 to 5 inches. At near-contact distance the gelatin showed massive cavitation.

But no mention of distance. If a 3" 6 shot load starts at just 1000-1100 fps it should still be deadly on birds at 20 yds

A daisy BB gun fires a 5 gr BB at less than 500fps and will kill birds and rabbits with a decent shot. The velocity of 1.6 gr 6 shot out of a 3" Judge is going to be over 500fps at 20 yds

We shall see just what it will do.

 

[mtgianni]

Way back when .... I bought one of the first Thompson Contenders in .410 /45 Long Colt with screw on outside choke. I thought it would be just the thing for squirrels ---- NOPE I found out I was just annoying squirrels with it. It wouldn't even break a glass milk bottle at 15 yards. I hate to think of all the people who have a .410 handgun loaded with pellets and think they have a good home defense weapon. They would be better off throwing it at the head of an intruder.

I had an internal choke on my 45/410 and shot quite a few jackrabbits and grouse with it.
Steelslayer, I believe there is no more perfect grouse cartridge than the 32 Mag with the 32 long running a close second. A 312" swc at 90-110 gr is a killer. If I am not packing a single six mag I have a Pre reg police 32 long in the hills during fall seasons.

 

[Echo40]

Are you aware that specialty ammunition such as Federal Premium's ".410 Handgun" line uses shot cups which prevent the shot from coming into contact with the rifling?

That's what most of us fools who like the Taurus Judge/S&W Governor use anyway... It works well too, believe it or not.

Besides, modifying the rifling could cause legal trouble, as a smoothbore Judge would be classified as an SBS.

 

[steelslaver]

It will NOT be a smooth bore, No way no how. I have reworked the 3" barrel first I used the .452 reamer I use to get 44 mag cylinders ready to become 45 colt. Then I took a 1/8 wide fine tooth square file and with the barrel in a vise first filed 4 spots top, bottom and both sides deep enough to be easily visible from the muzzle then I used those as guides and filed down the length of the 3" barrel at a slight angle working until I could see a square groove from muzzle to near forcing cone in all 4 spots. The barrel now has 4 lands and grooves and what I figure is approx a 1 in 40 inch twist. Yes, the grooves are shallow, but no shallower than an older 1917. Yea the twist is slow, but no slower than a trap door Springfield 45-70.

Somebody show me a regulation on chamber size to bore size, depth of grooves or how much twist it has to have to be legal. They DO NOT EXIST. There is also NO LAW on modifying rifling. You can legally bore barrels out and then rifle them again to your hearts content. It isn't even illegal for me to have the barrel with a smooth bore. If that was the case a piece of pipe or tubing with threads on the end would be illegal. Once it goes on a gun it must have rifling and it does. I am following the law.

I am not chasing down special ammo for a 410. In fact right now any 410 ammo is hard to find. Plus, I want to be able to reload for it.

Yes smooth bore hand guns are illegal. There are a pile of old revolvers out there have barrels with way less rifling than than this one one will. Should the owners of those guns with rusted out or shot out barrels be afraid? How many have you heard of being arrested.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

A while back there was a thread about 410 shotguns. Some one brought up the Yildiz .410 Side-By-Side and I liked it. But could not find it anywhere but Academy and none of those anywhere close to here. Looked around on all the online sites and nothing really rung my bell for what I was willing to pay. I see grouse and pheasants at close range in the places I hunt deer and elk and they make great camp fodder. A small compact 410 would be handy.

Anyway I was in a pawnshop I visit regularly and there is one of those stupid Taurus Judges with a 6" barrel. My brain starts to go hey that would work. I see birds closer than 15 yds all the time. Mountain grouse regularly run along in front of me never getting far ahead or very seldom flying. I ask for best price. Guy checks book and says $365. I hesitate say maybe later. I leave, get in car, start it up, shut it off go inside and buy it. Then find that 410 shells are hard to find right now.

As everyone knows I am a tinkerer. I have heard these pattern poorly and part of it is the rifling spinning the shot load. I have found a 3" for $50. Run a reamer down it to just remove the rifling then make and harden a button to press though it to give it shallow rifling with saw a 1 in a 100yd twist. There is no requirement on either depth of rifling or rate of twist, just can be a smooth bore, I won't be.

3" for $50.....WOW!........Glad I load my own.

 

[steelslaver]

3" barrel for $50 not 3" 410 shells LOL

I wouldn't pay that much for 410 shells and I will be loading my own.

 

[steelslaver]

I had an internal choke on my 45/410 and shot quite a few jackrabbits and grouse with it.
Steelslayer, I believe there is no more perfect grouse cartridge than the 32 Mag with the 32 long running a close second. A 312" swc at 90-110 gr is a killer. If I am not packing a single six mag I have a Pre reg police 32 long in the hills during fall seasons.

I have a bunch of 32s and even 2 327s. I am sure the 32 longs would work. I killed a couple last year with my 22 kit gun. But also misses some. The place I camped last year I could go get a limit in a hour or 2 with a small shotgun.

 

[steelslaver]

Well, I put the modified 3" barrel on it. Last week while in another city I found a box of 2 1/2" 7 1/2 shot that claimed 1250fps. I am sure they meant out of a real shotgun barrel.

Yesterday before the group met for our weekly handgun shoot, I took a big piece of cardboard and fold it over a target stand at 20 yds and fired on of the 2 1/2 loads for effect. I was pleasantly surprised. Most of the shot was in about a 24" pattern although it had 2 soft ball sized empty spots. What really amazed me is the target stand I used was covered with weathered 1/2" OSB and all the shot appeared to have went though it and though the cardboard behind it.

I have no doubt it will kill birds at 20 yds especial as I plan to get and use 3" #6 shells once some become available. That should help fill in the holes in pattern as 3" shells have 37% more shot. I have several bags of 6 shot already so may get a 410 loading set up.

By the way , I saw 3 boxed of 410 shells with bismuth shot at "just" $55 a box of 25. No thank you.

 

[sigp220.45]

I love this project.