Badkarma 1
US Veteran
You might want to read this:
Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues | The Truth About Guns
Dale
Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues | The Truth About Guns
Dale
Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG
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MichiganScott
Member
Wish they would say what the issues are. The article is very vague.
I originally thought it was an April Fools gag since this happened about two weeks ago.
The order was to "suspend the transition to M&Ps". New recruits would again be issued SIGs until such time as a final decision was made.
I have not heard that a final decision was made to drop the M&P yet. I doubt that could happen in 10 business days when Government is involved
The order was to "suspend the transition to M&Ps". New recruits would again be issued SIGs until such time as a final decision was made.
I have not heard that a final decision was made to drop the M&P yet. I doubt that could happen in 10 business days when Government is involved
DocSunShine
Member
Of all the M&Ps between mine, family and friends I have yet to see or even hear of a lemon. The platform has done nothing but improve from it's inception and many agencies use M&Ps without issue. The fact M&Ps are being issued to new recruits in an age of PC hiring, I have a strong suspicion any malfunctions are shooter induced...
4506517
Member
My agency has had multiple issues with the M & P. Every one issued by our agency has been replaced at least once. Guys on my squad are on their 3rd pistol.
Please give us just two examples of issues your dept. has had. I've never had an M&P malfunction. Then again, I don't have as many rounds through as I do through my Glocks.
I have an M&P45 that has had no problems, and an M&P9 that S&W ended up refunding the purchase price. My guess is that QC is slipping because S&W is pushing to get as many out as quickly as possible. I think it's a great design, and I hope that S&W straightens out any issues that may exist with the M&P.
If TX DPS is not adopting the M&P anymore, S&W should be doing an internal to see what went wrong, and how to fix it.
If TX DPS is not adopting the M&P anymore, S&W should be doing an internal to see what went wrong, and how to fix it.
That is one huge mess. For those of you here who have dealt with, even on a smaller scale, implementation of a change of this magnitude in LE agency you know what a headache it all is.
For an agency this large either someone with THAT kinda political juice wanted it or there had to have been a lot of issues with the batch of guns they were rolling into service. Not a good time to be a part of admin in their hallowed halls!
I've been the project manager for a G17 to G22 and G23 3rd gen and a few years back to the 4th gen. I'm doing it a very small city....larger department like that....phew!!!! BIG Deal!
Mess Indeed
Changing handguns also involves buying/issuing new duty holsters and those babies are pricey. Then, there's the matter of mag. pouches, extra magazines and transition training for the entire department. Armorers must be re-trained and certified on the new handgun system. This usually involves a trip to either the SIG or S&W Academy. It gets even more complicated if the changeover also involves a new caliber.
The M&P apparently passed their testing and evaluation period prior to adoption. Just makes me wonder.
Changing handguns also involves buying/issuing new duty holsters and those babies are pricey. Then, there's the matter of mag. pouches, extra magazines and transition training for the entire department. Armorers must be re-trained and certified on the new handgun system. This usually involves a trip to either the SIG or S&W Academy. It gets even more complicated if the changeover also involves a new caliber.
The M&P apparently passed their testing and evaluation period prior to adoption. Just makes me wonder.
4506517
Member
Failures to fire, failures to feed, failures to extract, failure to eject, broken magazine springs, split magazine floor plates, front sight dots falling out, broken strikers, pierced primers, bulged casings, rusted slides, pitted slides, rusted rear sights, rusted magazine bodies, stripped out grip pins.....I know you said two.....but that's all I can think of at the moment. I'm sure I'll remember more tomorrow.
Holy M. Wow. 
oldguyshoot
Member
Rastoff
US Veteran
Unless I was a left handed TX DPS officer, why would I care what they do or carry?
Groo01
Member
Groo here
This is why I Don't like the idea of issue autos and ammo.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You new guys don't remember all the troubles we had getting autos
to run with Hp's,
You had to find the load that the GUN liked not you.
At the S.O. we had guns that ran on some and not others,
anything and nothing,
The revolvers did not care what you fed them.
Guns or ammo from the lowest bidder is just that.
This is why I Don't like the idea of issue autos and ammo.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You new guys don't remember all the troubles we had getting autos
to run with Hp's,
You had to find the load that the GUN liked not you.
At the S.O. we had guns that ran on some and not others,
anything and nothing,
The revolvers did not care what you fed them.
Guns or ammo from the lowest bidder is just that.
This of course doesn't apply to Glocks, right? When police agencies started adopting the Glock in the mid '80s, after much rigorous and extensive testing, they ran like Swiss watches eating any and all ammo fed to them.
No doubt, your laundry list of every single M&P related issue that you have ever heard about, read about or possibly even experienced first hand is considerably longer. But until we get more details from those in a position to share such information, there is no way to say if any of the items you posted here are even relevant as it relates specifically to the Texas DPS news. I think it's also fair to note that your list doesn't reflect the fact that many of the older issues mentioned have already been addressed by one of the many S&W rolling engineering changes or QC fixes, as they continue to address known problems and respond to their end users.
I did likewise hear the same rumors as L Pete: "FTF, FTE, and magazine lip problems", but have yet to see those rumors confirmed as actual mechanical problems vs. training issues related to the DPS recruits using these test pistols (see below). I have begun to wonder if the issue might be related to the bad followers (search this forum for details) that an OEM supplier recently provided for new production M&P 9mm mags, while they were struggling to catch up on backordered mags that were a result of panicked buyers looking to stockpile highcap mags. I received two of these bad follower mags from Midway during roughly the same time period as the testing. S&W is addressing the problem. Would have been fun to see how well an M&P chambered in .357Sig and using the same DPS issued ammo would have worked compared to their current Sigs.
There was a very recent article from Nick Leghorn at The Truth About Guns wherein he quoted the highest ranked Texas DPS source:
"As you are aware I approved the adoption of the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm as the Department’s service handgun beginning with Recruit School A14. However, we have been experiencing malfunctions during Recruit School firearms training, which is unacceptable, and I have suspended the transition to the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.
Even if the manufacturer is able to address our issues over the next week, we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingencies. Education, Training and Research will continue to work with the manufacturer on this issue, but today, Trooper Trainees will be issued Sig Sauer 357 handguns, which we have in our inventory as a precaution."
Leghorn summarizes: "But it appears that the latest wave of recruits in training have experienced an “unacceptable” number of issues with the new gun, and the department is rolling back the changeover, moving back to their tried and true SIG SAUER P226 pistols in .357 SIG." To which he adds: "To be fair to S&W, almost every time a major department transitions from one product to another there are problems."
See full article here: Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues | The Truth About Guns
Hard not to take note that the M&P pistols were only being issued to new recruits (as best I can tell) and they were being used as the DPS's M&P beta testers. Previously from another source: "Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said Smith & Wesson M&P 9 mm handguns will be issued to troopers finishing their training in January. Current troopers will be allowed to carry their .357-caliber SIG Sauer pistols while DPS expands availability of the new handgun."
The M&Ps were adopted as the new department service handgun, yet the transition was conditional based on the results of beta testing with recruits? Hmmm. I do wonder how many pistols were issued for testing? They kept their inventory of Sigs, rather than trade them in, so how committed to making a change were they? I can only speculate based on what I've read and what I understand to be true about the political reality of LE supplier contracts, but I wouldn't think it too great a stretch to believe Sig would continue to lobby to keep the .357Sig round alive and their pistol in DPS duty holsters. Could more free .357Sig ammo and a bunch of new pistols be enough to put the kabosh on an M&P deal, or is it possible the DPS did the recruit beta testing in order to force Sig to 'earn' their business? I don't know either way, but I do know that politics are hard to completely remove from these sort of negotiations.
Shrewd man for sure BUT I would have to guess (it's just that, a guess) at that scale there would have been some inked contractual issues denoting a benchmark of performance that SW would have ensured they met so as not to be able to "loose" the deal.
Rastoff
US Veteran
You don't come right out and say it, but this sentence makes me think that you think using the recruits as a test bed is a bad idea. Why do you think that? The way I see it, a novice is a perfect test subject. If they can work the gun without trouble then anyone could.
Maybe someone with experience dealing in LE supplier contracts can interject, as I'm just speculating here, but you would think there would be some sort of contractual 'out' for the agency based on an agreed upon set of performance benchmarks/standards. There are probably some related behind-the-scenes political maneuvering that we won't be privy to, which is only frustrating to me in terms of clarity, as my real interest lies in whether their testing unearthed any actual problems with the guns themselves.
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