Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG
- Thread starter Badkarma 1
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Thank you for this informed post. Great points.
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Amen.
Many I served with didn't bother with the "clean it" part. It would be nice if every officer took firearms proficiency seriously. It would be nice if every police administrator was committed to supplying those officers with the best equipment and training available. It would be nice if politicians told the truth. It would be nice if S&W brought back the Triple Lock. It would be nice if German Shorthair Pointers lived to be 50.
That is one of my all time favorite movies and scene!! I can't tell u how many times I have watched bits and pieces of that movie.
Ofc.JL
Member
I don't know about anyone else, but it was a known fact for lotsa years in Texas LE circles that the TxDPS firearms unit command was very much SIG loyal. And I would wager that they also don't want to give up that priciest of handgun rounds; the .357 SIG.
2 strikes against the change over to M&P's; Brand and 9mm.
As someone earlier said, Politics!
2 strikes against the change over to M&P's; Brand and 9mm.
As someone earlier said, Politics!
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As an further note, our M&Ps have been on the street over a year and we have not had any major issues with the guns as far as repairs are concerned. They are holding up extremely well. That Texas Tribune article also mentioned "microns of movement" - well, I'm from South Texas and shoot pretty darned good, but I want to meet the guy that is worried about "microns of movement" and "possibly accuracy problems", because I might be able to learn something from him (chuckle...). I also want to find that device that measures that in his toolbox. Our rangemaster was curious as well.
Rastoff
US Veteran
This comment makes it sound like you don't believe they even have the ability to measure 10 microns (the amount mentioned in the article). Well, in the world of measurement, it's not really that small or hard.
10 microns = .0004"
This device is quite common and is capable of that measurement:
Don't get me wrong, I too think that the measurement they mentioned is a joke and insignificant to the operation of an M&P. However, it's not impossible to make that measurement and the tool, depending on what they measured, isn't uncommon.
The information I've been able to get out of DPS is that they're talking about the front sight moving. I have no doubt they have the capability to measure 10 microns of movement, but I question how they arrived at that number. Did they take a measurement on the brand new guns to determine exactly where the sights were positioned before they were shot? If so, why would they do that?
As a new shooter, if I could limit the movement of my front sight to ten microns, I'd be tickled pink.
(Just kidding. Agree 100%).
I would really like to know how they can measure front sight movement to .0004 in. If that is what they are saying, and I have no reason to doubt it, I think it is a smoke screen for the real reason.
FWIW - I have Eight (8) M&P's
2 Full size 9 and 40
2 Shields 9 and 40
2 Compacts 9 and 40
2 45's Full and compact
I have never ever had a malfunction with any of these weapons. My Shield 9 (EDC) has over 2,400 rounds of all kinds of ammo. Reloads, 115,124,127,147 grain JHP's Ball, Blazer, Tula, Brown Bear, Speer, Winchester, Remington Federal. Just about anything you can think I have shot thru my M&P's. One of my Full Size M&P's (the 40) has had a chop job at the grip. I have a gunsmith (Business end Customs Peabody,Mass) chop the grip. It now accepts the 10 round Mag, but i have the luxury of having the longer sight radius and barell, with the compactness of a short grip.
And still this guns runs like a champ
BUT and I stress BUT. My Sigs and Glocks run just as well.
Just my 2 cents
1Sg
Out
2 Full size 9 and 40
2 Shields 9 and 40
2 Compacts 9 and 40
2 45's Full and compact
I have never ever had a malfunction with any of these weapons. My Shield 9 (EDC) has over 2,400 rounds of all kinds of ammo. Reloads, 115,124,127,147 grain JHP's Ball, Blazer, Tula, Brown Bear, Speer, Winchester, Remington Federal. Just about anything you can think I have shot thru my M&P's. One of my Full Size M&P's (the 40) has had a chop job at the grip. I have a gunsmith (Business end Customs Peabody,Mass) chop the grip. It now accepts the 10 round Mag, but i have the luxury of having the longer sight radius and barell, with the compactness of a short grip.
And still this guns runs like a champ
BUT and I stress BUT. My Sigs and Glocks run just as well.
Just my 2 cents
1Sg
Out
Rastoff
US Veteran
The Pareto principle (also known as the 80–20 rule) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.
I'll bet that if we were able to survey 100% of the M&P owners, we would find that 80% of them have had no trouble of any kind with their guns. We would find that 18% had problems that they related to ammo or a single magazine. 1.9% had problems that were fixed with either a simple part or by returning to S&W. Then there will be .1% that had problems that couldn't be or weren't fixed.
I'm just grabbing those numbers out of the air, but I'll still bet they're pretty close to reality. Alas, we cannot survey 100% of the M&P owners.
I'll bet that if we were able to survey 100% of the M&P owners, we would find that 80% of them have had no trouble of any kind with their guns. We would find that 18% had problems that they related to ammo or a single magazine. 1.9% had problems that were fixed with either a simple part or by returning to S&W. Then there will be .1% that had problems that couldn't be or weren't fixed.
I'm just grabbing those numbers out of the air, but I'll still bet they're pretty close to reality. Alas, we cannot survey 100% of the M&P owners.
I think the M&P keeps getting better -- which doesn't mean it was ever bad. We have improved trigger bars (with the H on them) that provide improved perceived re-set, improved sears that are smoother and take less effort, improved barrels (with a more suitable twist rate) that are more consistently accurate, and larger sear springs that make the re-set function of the sear more reliable.
I read somewhere on the Internet (so it must be true) that the larger sear spring came about because the NC Highway Patrol had a few failure-to-reset-the-sear issues -- which can easily be fixed by pulling the slide back one inch -- but which is a potential problem in a pistol used for LE or self-defense. The result is we all can have M&Ps with a larger, more reliable re-set spring. (I think the change occurred around November 2012, if I remember. Apex Tactical will convert an old model sear spring to the new model for around $25).
Bottom line: if the M&Ps used by Texas DPS have a systemic problem, I would be surprised at this point, but I'm sure S&W will fix and introduce the fix to the manufacturing line.
I read somewhere on the Internet (so it must be true) that the larger sear spring came about because the NC Highway Patrol had a few failure-to-reset-the-sear issues -- which can easily be fixed by pulling the slide back one inch -- but which is a potential problem in a pistol used for LE or self-defense. The result is we all can have M&Ps with a larger, more reliable re-set spring. (I think the change occurred around November 2012, if I remember. Apex Tactical will convert an old model sear spring to the new model for around $25).
Bottom line: if the M&Ps used by Texas DPS have a systemic problem, I would be surprised at this point, but I'm sure S&W will fix and introduce the fix to the manufacturing line.
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If this is the real issue, then it is not a "problem" in that sense. Simply some front sights or dovetails out of spec. As most of us are aware, the vast majority of S&W pistols (3rd Gen and M&P) have sights fitted so tightly in the dovetail that movement of them is next to impossible.
This is an easy fix, and certainly does not warrant some kind of across-the-board rejection of the M&P pistol platform.
Unless, of course, the people in charge of the new pistol transition are intentionally trying to sabotage it in order to stay with SIG, or to do something else.
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...I have one of those! My sarcasm must not have been clear enough. The point is that although you could measure it, it wouldn't be detectable on the target.This comment makes it sound like you don't believe they even have the ability to measure 10 microns (the amount mentioned in the article). Well, in the world of measurement, it's not really that small or hard.
10 microns = .0004"
This device is quite common and is capable of that measurement:
Don't get me wrong, I too think that the measurement they mentioned is a joke and insignificant to the operation of an M&P. However, it's not impossible to make that measurement and the tool, depending on what they measured, isn't uncommon.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that "10 micron" thing was just an author trying to sound like he knew something when he really didn't.
tipoc
Member
Not to make more of this than we should but here is the quote from the article in which a Officer from the DPS quoted by the reporter mentions the "less than 10 microns" figure...
"The agency decided to halt the use of the new handguns after a couple of the weapons experienced slight movement of less than 10 microns after repeated firing of about 3,000 rounds, Vinger said. A micron is one-millionth of a meter. Movement in a gun could affect accuracy. There were also bullet "feeding and ejection" issues. None of the performance issues resulted in any injuries. And so far, DPS has not been able to replicate these issues in subsequent testing, Vinger said."
DPS Suspends Use of New Handgun Over "Concerns" | The Texas Tribune
Since no one from DPS has said where the "less than 10 microns" movement is occurring speculating on it seems pointless to me. Until till they do, if they do I'll be skeptical that there really is all that much of a problem with the guns that can't be straightened out fairly easily.
tipoc
"The agency decided to halt the use of the new handguns after a couple of the weapons experienced slight movement of less than 10 microns after repeated firing of about 3,000 rounds, Vinger said. A micron is one-millionth of a meter. Movement in a gun could affect accuracy. There were also bullet "feeding and ejection" issues. None of the performance issues resulted in any injuries. And so far, DPS has not been able to replicate these issues in subsequent testing, Vinger said."
DPS Suspends Use of New Handgun Over "Concerns" | The Texas Tribune
Since no one from DPS has said where the "less than 10 microns" movement is occurring speculating on it seems pointless to me. Until till they do, if they do I'll be skeptical that there really is all that much of a problem with the guns that can't be straightened out fairly easily.
tipoc
[SIG] "Gun glitch? San Joaquin Co. officials switch out weapons"
Gun glitch? San Joaquin Co. officials switch out weapons | News - KCRA Home
Gun glitch? San Joaquin Co. officials switch out weapons | News - KCRA Home
tipoc
Member
The link JohnSW provided tells the story of San Juaquin County, Ca. Sheriff's Dept. temporarily replacing 300 Sigs in .40 cal that were less than a year old. The Dept. replaced them after two of the guns would not fire on the range due to a problem reloading caused by a bad pin.
Sig will check the guns over and likely repair or replace the guns. The Dept. took all the guns out of service.
Not only M&Ps have problems at times it seems. Sigs are in general reliable guns. The article doesn't say what model is involved.
tipoc
Sig will check the guns over and likely repair or replace the guns. The Dept. took all the guns out of service.
Not only M&Ps have problems at times it seems. Sigs are in general reliable guns. The article doesn't say what model is involved.
tipoc
Yeah, this happens more often than enthusiasts and 'brand aficionados' might care to realize.
I can think of a couple of other brands (meaning not S&W) where major state or county agencies had problems with components in new guns, and the gun companies had to scramble to replace major components in just a couple hundred guns from a production run, or in a couple thousand guns, if they wanted the agencies to stay with their products. These sort of things don't always make the news or find their way into public attention.
Sometimes it doesn't serve the interests of either the agency or the gun company to air out such things in the press. Sometimes it happens, though.
I can think of a couple of other brands (meaning not S&W) where major state or county agencies had problems with components in new guns, and the gun companies had to scramble to replace major components in just a couple hundred guns from a production run, or in a couple thousand guns, if they wanted the agencies to stay with their products. These sort of things don't always make the news or find their way into public attention.
Sometimes it doesn't serve the interests of either the agency or the gun company to air out such things in the press. Sometimes it happens, though.
HayesGreener
US Veteran
Having witnessed many handgun changeovers in 45 years, I have seen the problems with failures pop up in all manner and brands of guns when the manufacturer pushes production numbers to meet large orders while trying to capture the LE or military market share. I saw it happen with the Model 66 in the 70's and with the Model 669/6906 in the 80's, the Beretta 92 in the 90's, and now with Sigs and M&P's. And there are many others. I recently attended an instructor course with the chief instructor of a large southern department that carries the M&P 45 and they experienced many failures. The good news is that S&W sent people down there and fixed or replaced all the guns with the problem and I see that Sig is doing the same in the California sheriff's office. No firearm manufacturer can afford to have that kind of problem hanging out there. I know from my time working with Texas Rangers a few years ago that they are very fond of their Sigs and I believe the impetus for changing to the M&P was to migrate back to the 9mm due to the cost of ammo and training issues experienced while training new recruits on heavier calibers. This is not a new concept and the FBI seems to be trending that way. Some might argue that the DPS decision was made to change guns and caliber for the wrong reasons which may bring some heat to the argument. Officers can be very emotional, and rightfully so, when the bottom line dictates choice of life-safety things like what kind of pistol they carry or what kind of car they drive. I do not, however, know of an incident in recent memory where an officer lost his or her life due to a pistol failure, but if someone knows of such an occurrence I would like to know about it.
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I have an early M&P 40 made in 2006 that I have put 15,000+ rounds down it. To date I have hade three mechanical failures plus a FTE. The mechanical failures were:
1. Roll pin in front of the trigger guard worked out about .2". It made a great place to index my finger when it was not on the trigger but it started to wear on the holster so it went back to S&W, no recurrence in 10,000 rounds.
2. Broken captive recoil spring, it was still usable but S&W sent a replacement.
3. Mag dropout. Could have been due to the early model (S/N MPAxxxx) or it could have been caused by wear as I do lots of mag changes due to practice and local competitions.
The FTE was caused by me doing a torture test of not cleaning the gun for 1,000 rounds until a failure (took 20 weeks). The actual issue was carbon build up on the ejector. I repeated this test but cleaned the ejector at 800 rounds but quit after 1,600 rounds (over 26 weeks) with no FTE as the purpose was to find the weak link on this gun as a carry gun.
Overall I have trusted my life to this M&P or a matching M&P 40C for the last eight years.
I have seen major failures happening on Glocks (springs and several front sights falling out), Sigs (mag baseplate failure spilling rounds all over the floor), M&Ps (mag dropouts) and multiple make 1911s having different failures.
All makes will have failures and the big boys will take action to identify the sources of those problems and take actions to correct them.
By the way besides M&Ps I also own 1911s, a Glock 19 and a Sig 226 which I will start using in local league matches this week for more practice so I not a M&P or else person.
1. Roll pin in front of the trigger guard worked out about .2". It made a great place to index my finger when it was not on the trigger but it started to wear on the holster so it went back to S&W, no recurrence in 10,000 rounds.
2. Broken captive recoil spring, it was still usable but S&W sent a replacement.
3. Mag dropout. Could have been due to the early model (S/N MPAxxxx) or it could have been caused by wear as I do lots of mag changes due to practice and local competitions.
The FTE was caused by me doing a torture test of not cleaning the gun for 1,000 rounds until a failure (took 20 weeks). The actual issue was carbon build up on the ejector. I repeated this test but cleaned the ejector at 800 rounds but quit after 1,600 rounds (over 26 weeks) with no FTE as the purpose was to find the weak link on this gun as a carry gun.
Overall I have trusted my life to this M&P or a matching M&P 40C for the last eight years.
I have seen major failures happening on Glocks (springs and several front sights falling out), Sigs (mag baseplate failure spilling rounds all over the floor), M&Ps (mag dropouts) and multiple make 1911s having different failures.
All makes will have failures and the big boys will take action to identify the sources of those problems and take actions to correct them.
By the way besides M&Ps I also own 1911s, a Glock 19 and a Sig 226 which I will start using in local league matches this week for more practice so I not a M&P or else person.
silversport
Member
I am curious that if the reason for changing to 9mm was indeed the impetus (so much more going on though I suspect) then why didn't they just transition to the same pistol in 9mm???...no changing of much anything to carry the same pistol in a different caliber...
I don't believe there was anything mysterious and suspect S&W made the Texas DPS a better deal then SIG wanted to...
Bill
I don't believe there was anything mysterious and suspect S&W made the Texas DPS a better deal then SIG wanted to...
Bill
silversport
Member
seems like an odd first post...no cracks in the stainless slides...and they have been stainless since the late 1990's...
Bill
tipoc
Member
Yes that was during the early rounds of testing the U.S. military did for a new service pistol in the mid 1980s on the alloy framed guns. Sig corrected the problem. Along with the Beretta 92 the Sig P226 was selected for use. The gun has had no significant problem with cracked frames since then. But this being the internet things live on, and on, and...
tipoc
Doug M.
Member
I think the FBI had some with cracked slides too, when the issued some # of them in the ... late 80s or early 90s.
OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Frames, there were cracked frames in the earlier 226s and 220s. SIG fixed them too.
Silversport : As far as I know the M&P is cheaper and holds more ammo than the SIG P226. And I wouldn't doubt S&W took a page out of Glocks book on how to sell pistols either.
Dale
Silversport : As far as I know the M&P is cheaper and holds more ammo than the SIG P226. And I wouldn't doubt S&W took a page out of Glocks book on how to sell pistols either.
Dale
TXDPS should just stay with their trusty Sigs, hell they work very well. To me the choice of 9x19 over .357 Sig seems like a step backwards. The .357 Sig round has a very good street record with agencies that use it. Several federal & state agencies use it & we don't see the FTS horror stories with the .357 vs. the 9x19. Ironically their neighbors, the NMSP have been using .357 M&P's for years.
The switching over requires new holsters & mag pouches. M&P mags are fatter than Sig's. TDPS wears corfam & that is the most expensive duty gear around. That add$ up really quick.
The switching over requires new holsters & mag pouches. M&P mags are fatter than Sig's. TDPS wears corfam & that is the most expensive duty gear around. That add$ up really quick.
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