The .45 Special v. the .45 AR

[jski3]

Just noticed this offering from Starline brass:

45 Cowboy Special (Large Pistol primer)

Cowboy 45 Special, 45 SPL, C45S
0.892 - 0.896 O.A.L.

The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die.

I had been looking for a shorter .45 Colt case for my S&W Mountain Gun but the .45AR has too thick a rim to work.

I know there are the S&W .45ACP revolvers the can load AR cases but why bother? Don't most S&W 625 owners like the full moon clip?

 

[robertrwalsh]

In my experience most shooters like the moon clips, but they are a modest pain to insert and remove the cases from the clips themselves. That is obviously not a problem with 45AR brass. On the rare occasion when I carry one, or shoot one in competition, I use the moon clips. For casual plinking I often us the AR brass. Fortunately I have an adequate supply of both.

 

[jski3]

I think this piece from an article about Starline's "new" brass answers some of your questions:

The .45 Colt cartridge has been with us since the 1870s, when it was introduced with the new Peacemaker Colt Army revolver. That was the heyday of blackpowder and the new round had room for plenty of it. As a modern round with modern powders, the .45 Colt's case capacity is excessive. Cowboy Action Shooting demands low velocities and lead bullets, which is no challenge for a competent handloader. Still, it would be make for more efficient reloading if the case was shorter. Understand that the old Long Colt is probably the most popular round in the game, both in replica and Colt SAAs, as well as many lever guns. So what can you find for shorter brass?

The .45 Auto Rim might seem like a good idea. It is a short, rimmed cartridge designed for revolver cylinders chambered for the .45 ACP-like the 300,000 Colt and S&W 1917s of World War I On this one, the rim is extra-thick to equal the ACP rim thickness, plus the additional thickness of the moon clip for which the guns were designed. The Auto Rim works to perfection in DA/SA revolvers chambered for ACP, but won't work in SAA revolvers chambered for either the ACP or Long Colt.

How about the short round with a .45 Colt rim? That's the .45 S&W, which is sometimes called the .45 Schofield or-infrequently-the .45 Short Colt. Built to equal the original performance of the .45 Colt in the shorter-cylindered Schofield revolvers, this cartridge was dormant for decades. The SASS people brought it back to life for their modern shooting sport. I would have bet that this would be the solution, but I was wrong. It turns out the .45 Schofield is a perfect fit in length for what we are seeking, but the rim is shaped to be incompatible with some of the guns guys are using in the Cowboy shoots.

For these reasons, we are about to get a .45 ACP-length, rimmed brass that will run through just about anything chambered for the .45 Colt. For shooters using S&W revolvers chambered for the Colt, this round makes an efficient option for custom loading. It might also be a functional option for use in some of those troublesome .45 Colt lever guns. It's going to be fun to see how it all shakes out.

 

[steelslaver]

Some guys love moon clips and some despise them. I am a fan of clips myself. Those short cases are neat for guys who have 45 colts and want to make up light loads, but they would have gross head space in a 45 acp gun and I think that there are way more acp guns out there than there are 45 colt guns. I have a couple of my 45s set up with cylinders that handle 45 colt, 45 acp or 45 win mag. I do NOT load the win mags to full power. But close to my 45 colt load of a 255 gr lead at bit over 1000fps.

I think that as long as there are revolvers that fire 45 acps there will be some 45AR around. Probably more than the new short colt brass for a long time.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I have many moon clips, once thinking they were needed. Found out most of the time ACP brass just falls out. I find carrying the loaded moon clips to be inconvenient, but a pocket full of AR cartridges is not a problem for me.

 

[jski3]

Most of the revolvers that would/could use the .45AR are either obsolete or the owners would rather use the .45ACP + moon clip.

But that .45 Special is just what the doctor ordered for .45 Colt & .45 Schofield shooters.

The biggest advocate for the .45AR is Mike "Duke" Venturino of American Handgunner fame. But I think the .45 Special undercuts his whole argument, which is based a case capacity ... the .45 Colt has too much.

 

[StakeOut]

If I still had any 45 Colt revolvers I'd still use full length 45 Colt brass for reloading.

These short 45 Colt Cowboy Special cases will be like or worse than using 38spl brass in a 357 magnum cylinder and 44spl in a 44 magnum cylinder with leaving the dirty rings in the cylinder holes.

Let's not forget the bullet needs to travel further to reach the forcing cone.

EDIT:I'm a 45AR reloader for use in 45acp revolvers.

 

[Cal44]

Will these rounds work in a 625 chaimbered in 45 acp?

If not, then they don't replace Auto Rim.

 

[spad124]

I have revolvers in both .45 Colt and .45 AR/ACP. If the .45 Cowboy chambers in my M1917 S&W, then that just gives me another option. But, I've found my M1917 is much more accurate with AR than ACP so I use AR. If the goal is simply reload speed, then yes, moon clips have an advantage, but for me, that's their only advantage.

I can't see an advantage to the .45 Cowboy for my 25-5 or SAA. Seems like it would have quite a bit of bullet jump. And cleaning out the ".38 Special/44 Special lead ring" left between the edge of the case and forcing cone doesn't seem to be a plus.

 

[Ed Fowler]

..... But, I've found my M1917 is much more accurate with AR than ACP so I use AR. If the goal is simply reload speed, then yes, moon clips have an advantage, but for me, that's their only advantage....

I also have found the AR cartridges to be more accurate. I can remember a debate between men I felt were knowledgeable gun scribes discussing the performance differences between the rimmed vs the rimless cartridges. As I remember they came to the same conclusion, I have searched for the article but can not find it.

Nice to read someone else has noted a difference!

 

[steelslaver]

The new short cases will probably chamber in any of the 45acp guns, but if the rim sits on the cylinder face they will have way excessive head space, .030 more than it should be. Thats why the 45 ar has such a thick rim.

If you loaded the new short 45 cases with the brass trimmed to the same overall length as a 45 acp and used a tapered crimp they should work vial head spacing the same way rimless cartridges do in semi autos, on the case mouth.

But, then I own 4 S&W revolvers that fire 45 acp and own no 45ar brass. I do own about 100 moon clips and lots of acp brass. With the right equipment loading and unloading the clips is so simple and nothing beats them for reloading your gun.

 

[jski3]

What about the gap between the bullet in its case and the forcing cone. But before the bullet jumps from the cylinder to the forcing cone, it must first go thru the chamber throat. So that shouldn't be a problem for the .45 Special v. the .45 Colt.

Correct?

 

[jski3]

Just talked to Hunter at Starline, their tech guy. Three points:

a) the .45 Special case is the same as the .45 ACP and .45 AR, except with a different head (i.e., rim).
b) there's NO problem with accuracy because of the shorter case. (For the reason stated above.)
c) the .45 Special had been under a exclusive license with another company and that's expired. So it's been added to the Starline catalog for only a month.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Yes, the 45 AR is now obsolete. Please forward me all your old brass for free recycling

 

[Bullet Bob]

Me too.

Although I'm having a hard time reconciling the OP's title with the quote, I don't see anything in the quote saying the AR is obsolete.

 

[jski3]

I was trying (and maybe failing) to connect the observation that most shooters who have .45 ACP revolvers prefer to use the moon clip. And that people like me, who might have been interested in a .45 AR, are no longer interested because of Starline's new .45 Special case.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

It helps when someone is making comparisons and blanket statements, that they know why there is a difference in the styles of case rims!

Ivan

 

[StakeOut]

I was trying (and maybe failing) to connect the observation that most shooters who have .45 ACP revolvers prefer to use the moon clip. And that people like me, who might have been interested in a .45 AR, are no longer interested because of Starline's new .45 Special case.

Please connect the dots;there's something I'm not getting.

IMO,the new short 45 Colt brass will not head space correctly in a 45acp revolver.If you have proof that my opinion is wrong put forth the documented proof.

In the past some member cut down 45 Colt brass to 45AR height and the cut brass did not head space correctly in 45acp revolvers.

 

[jski3]

I'm NOT suggesting to use .45 Special brass in a .45 ACP revolver. I'm simply saying the rationale for using .45AR rounds and/or seeking out a revolver that accommodates the .45AR round are shrinking.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I'm NOT suggesting to use .45 Special brass in a .45 ACP revolver. I'm simply saying the rationale for using .45AR rounds and/or seeking out a revolver that accommodates the .45AR round are shrinking.

Is or isn't. What does it have to do with your posting?