The internal lock: my thoughts on the subject; and on the concept of a back up gun.

AZ Shooter

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I am going to begin this commentary with the discussion of a SIG Sauer pistol. Now wait...you'll see where I am going in a minute.

When they first came out, I bought a SIG P220 Stainless. Fantastic pistol; heavy, accurate, easy to control. It cost somewhere around $800.00 if I recall correctly. After becoming familiar with it and after putting about 900 rounds or so through it, I began using it as a concealed carry piece.

One day I went to the range and decided to shoot the pistol I was carrying at the time; my P220 Stainless. I unloaded the carry ammo and loaded a magazine of practice rounds. The pistol fired once. The slide was part way back and I saw I had a double feed; fired brass in the chamber with a new round jammed behind it. I cleared the malfunction and found that the hook on the extractor had broken off! If I had been in a defensive shooting and if my first round had not stopped my attacker, I would have been in deep trouble. Since then, I always carry a back up gun (more on this in a bit).

Mechanical devices can fail. Do I like the internal lock on my new 1917 redux Smith? No. Do I think it is necessary? No. Will it keep me from carrying the weapon for defense? No. Any mechanical device can fail; therefore I carry a back up weapon.

Consider my car. Geez! Tie rods (whatever they are), pistons, rapidly spinning gears, transmissions, differentials....think of all the potential failures that could endanger me! Look at the tires! Mere rubber! Why, just about any trash on the highway could give me a blowout and spin me right in front of a speeding semi. Maybe it would be better not to drive the darn thing at all and just walk!

Do I like the internal lock? No. Do I think it is necessary? No. Will it keep me from carrying the weapon for defense? No.

HK has internal locks as do many other manufactures; the difference is, you can't see it so people don't think about it.

Anyway, that is enough from me on the subject of the internal lock.

Affiliated with the safety concerns surrounding a defensive shooting situation is the concept of the back up gun. With a mechanical failure of the primary gun (see above); go to back up. An incoming round hits the primary weapon or the person carrying it and the weapon is damaged or dropped; go to the backup weapon. A severe ammo malfunction (kaboom) or possibly something else...like this: I once found a live round of Remington factory 9mm pistol ammo on the floor of the range. The round had no primer; and even more interesting, it didn't even have a touch hole for the primer fire (if it had had a primer) to reach the gunpowder! I'm not sure what damage an exploding primer with nowhere to go but back and around might do to a pistol or revolver, but it would certainly back the primer out in a revolver and probably jam the cylinder tightly. Go to back up.

Now if you are in any situation where things have gone so far South that you even need your back up weapon things are serious indeed.

For me, I would not want to be holding any of the current "in style" small pistols. If I am injured, if my primary just blew up or was shot from my hands the LAST thing I would want to transition to would be a micro-miniature 9mm or .380 that has a barrel so short I get no velocity or penetration, but lots of recoil. I would not want a grip so small only two of my fingers could wrap around it; especially if my fingers had sweat or worse, blood on them! I would not want sights so small I need a magnifying glass to see them. No thanks; I value my life too much to carry something like that.

When I carry my six inch Python, the back up is a three inch Python. With all my Smith revolvers; M27's M29's M629's etc, my back up is a Model 67. When I carry my HK Elite the back up is a USP9..that would be a full size, NOT a compact.

Like the actor in The Unforgiven said, "I'm not going to die for a lack of shooting back."

Firearms are not all that hard to conceal and I am not so concernered about comfort that I would carry something so light it seems like it's not there. No "I can't believe it's a real gun" style firearems for me. I value my life too much.
 
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I notice a lot of these guys who jumped on the tiny gun bandwagon in the last couple of years are now selling these guns. For serious carry, a snubby revolver is about as small as I go. For me, that is about the balancing point between usability and carryability. If that makes any sense. . . . .
 
If I get worried enough about the IL, I'll remove it. Right now, I'm not too worried.

BUG: I'm not LEO, and there aren't many times I feel a need for a gun at all, let alone a backup gun. I spent most of my life in the military, and I couldn't take a cell phone to where I worked, let alone a gun. Now I'm a retired old fart, and I don't go many places where there is more than a 1/1,000,000 chance of encountering a crazed gunman.

When I do, I carry my Model 60. If that happens to be the day my Model 60 becomes the first (or whatever) Model 60 to lock up, then I guess God wants me to call life quits. I'll try to stab the BG as I leave...

If I need to go someplace ugly, then a rifle or full sized gun on my hip with a small one well concealed sounds like a plan. It won't be raw firepower that will be likely to save me, but surprise...and I practice far more with my small gun than my bigger ones.
 
I bought a small .380 just for kicks and giggles (and I had too much money on my hands). It was fun to play with but I ended up trading it as I just never felt comfortable with it. It was WORK to shoot it well. I just went back to my snub .38 which I'm very comfortable with. The little .380 was easier to carry, but honestly not by much. I'd much rather carry something I'm comfortable shooting that something that I'm really not sure about.

As for the locks, frankly they don't bother me. I figure there are other things more likely to go wrong than the lock backing out. If I had my choice of two identical guns, the only difference being an internal lock, I'd go lock-less. However the presence of a lock would not deter me from buying a gun.
 
I have no problem with the lock. Hasn't malfunctioned on any the few "new" Smiths I have.
Not a fan of autos. As far as "lockless" back-up is concerned, I like a pre-lock model 640 with Crimson Trace. Lots of lockless options out there.
 
If you just carry a good revolver, you won't need a backup gun because the gun will work when you need it.
 
Affiliated with the safety concerns surrounding a defensive shooting situation is the concept of the back up gun. With a mechanical failure of the primary gun (see above); go to back up.
For civilian defense, the whole concept of BUG strikes me as absurd. The vast majority of life threat shootings occur at a range of about five yards or less. If your gun fails (or you miss the target with your first or second shot) you're dead anyway. If the other guy has a gun, you're shot. If not, he can run up on you and grab your gun in less than one second at that range so you won't have time to figure out your gun is jammed and draw a second weapon.
 
For civilian defense, the whole concept of BUG strikes me as absurd. The vast majority of life threat shootings occur at a range of about five yards or less. If your gun fails (or you miss the target with your first or second shot) you're dead anyway. If the other guy has a gun, you're shot. If not, he can run up on you and grab your gun in less than one second at that range so you won't have time to figure out your gun is jammed and draw a second weapon.

Your scenario assumes a determined and tactically minded opponent who really wants to kill you and knows how, as distinguished from a street punk who found, stole or traded dope for the gun last Saturday night and learned to use it watching Snoop Dog videos.
 
A whole lot of the culture surrounding defensive carry is absurd, really. Based more on action movies and video games than reality. I often carry a J-frame in my pocket because it's my right to do so, not because I think I'll need it. Should that time ever come I have no doubt that five rounds will serve.
 
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't carry, but I have no desire to walk around with five or so pounds of hardware on my person. I prefer to carry a single J-frame and, on rare occasions, a reload.

Am I running the risk of being insufficiently armed? Sure. But the way I look at it is this: the odds of me needing to use my carry gun on any given day are 10,000 to one. The odds of my revolver malfunctioning when I pull the trigger are likewise 10,000 to one. The odds of both happening together are 100 million to one. I have a greater risk of getting struck by lightning, but I don't feel the need to affix a lightning rod to my hat. ;)
 
Depends on the environment for me.

Casually out walking my dogs....my 442 with a reload makes me feel secure.

Scouting out some hunting land that is bordered by some low income areas where it looks like the walking dead along the roadside when you are coming out of the woods....I'll be found with something fullsized....and plenty of ammo.
 
Beat a deadhorse.

:rolleyes:

Do we need yet another one of these threads?
 
2nd on the, "do we really need..."

All mechancial things will eventually fail.

Some will fail before others. SIGs aren't the guns the once were. Your S&W with the lock may run 10,000 rounds without a hitch. Or 100.

I choose to have fewer variables. I paid a premium for a pre-lock 342. It isn't what I carry all the time, but the other things I carry don't have anything extra on them.

That said, the older I've gotten, the less I feel the need to convince anyone else they need to do anything, much less carry what I like. Carry a SIG, HK, Glock, S&W, Ruger, Colt, wasp spray, brass knuckles, etc. I won't try to convince anyone unless I know for a fact I am far more educated on the matter at hand than they are AND care about that person. A lot.
 
I don't play the odds "game". I will always carry two guns and maybe a long gun in the car. Others may do as they wish.

The basics come first. Situational awareness. Mindset. Training. And above all, practice. If you carry a gun, practice with it. If you carry a BUG, practice with it too.

As I said, others may do as they wish. It is my opinion and only my opinion that some folks are kidding themselves. One gun isn't enough. One gun without a reload surely isn't enough.

At the risk of getting flamed, I don't think that some have thought things through seriously. Far be it for me to tell others how to live and what to do. But the whole point is to live. Defend yourself by any means possible and go home.

Through out my entire up bringing I was taught to always be prepared. To prepare for the worst and if it does'nt come, GOOD.

People always compare themselves to law enforcement. To do so shows a serious lack of realistic thinking and foresight.

Consider, as a concealed carrier we are required by law to keep our guns concealed until we can determine without ANY doubt that we are about to be attacked with intention of bodily harm or death.

We cannot draw our firearm and ready ourselves as a police officer would during a felony stop. We have to wait. So what does that tell you?

Having to wait puts us at a serious disadvantage. Your behind the eight ball right from the start. It's you against him. One on one.

No backup to call. No shotgun or AR in the car. No radio to call for help. No K9 in the car. And no body armor.

The only difference is, we don't investigate crimes or chase bad guys.

Knowing this, why would'nt you prepare to the best of your ability? Why would'nt you carry two guns? And a reload?

I have seen the best most respected pistols AND revolvers fail to operate at one time or another. They are man made. And God knows, we don't produce mechanical objects which are perfect or even close to it.

To trust that any firearm will always be reliable 100 percent of the time is foolish. But what are the odds that two guns break at the same time. Very slim.

But again, I don't play the odds game. Make your own luck cause luck won't be there when you need it.

Just my long winded 2 cents.
 
I guess everyone is entitled to the level of being prepared that makes them feel comfotable. My carry piece is a Sig P228 and I only have it on me about 20% of the time. In the summer when it's shorts and tee shirts time de and depending where I'm going I will have a S&W Model 36 in my pocket about the same percentage of time. If I'm not carrying on me then the weapon is with me in my truck so if I get somewhere and feel the need I grab it.

In my home I have a Sig P226 in 40 S&W and a Sig P226 in 9mm located in two different areas of the home.

To me it's all about what makes you feel comfortable as you have about the same chance getting killed driving you car as being shot in a robbery. I drive my car about 18K miles a year and never give it a second thought.

I don't care about the IL issue because I don't own any with one or plan to.
 
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My first two SW purchases had the lock (60 pro, 638) and I have had no problem with either one. Since then, I have learned (here) that one can find as good or better older revolvers that do not have the lock and I won't ever buy a new SW with a lock now.

They are ugly - just like a gun with "read the user manual" or "capable of firing without magazine" engraved on the barrel - reflects an air of manufacturing condescension that I choose to avoid.
 
I agree that if you have to carry an IL revolver for any serious purpose, you should carry a back up gun.......or two. Regards 18DAI.
 
BUG: I'm not LEO, and there aren't many times I feel a need for a gun at all, let alone a backup gun... I don't go many places where there is more than a 1/1,000,000 chance of encountering a crazed gunman.

+1

the chance of a need for a gun is outrageously low. The chance of that need arising and your high quality carry gun failing are mind bogglingly low. So low that a BUG is just insane.

Feel free if y'all want. But it seems silly to me.
 
...As I said, others may do as they wish. It is my opinion and only my opinion that some folks are kidding themselves. One gun isn't enough. One gun without a reload surely isn't enough...

FWIW: I pulled a gun once. I had returned from a long, hot hike. I was several miles from the nearest paved road and probably 30 miles from the nearest cop. There were 8 guys sitting on top of my car drinking whiskey.

When they saw me, they got off without a word and started to spread out around me. I pulled my...

my 22 6 shot revolver. :eek:

Held it about 30 deg low and decided I'd shoot the closest guy in the head. That is the nice thing about shooting 10K+ rounds thru a gun.

They stopped. I moved around the left end of them to my car. Opened my car with my left hand, got in, started it with my left hand and drove off. Didn't put the 22 down for several miles.

30 years have passed since then. No, I don't advocate a 6 shot 22 revolver, but not all self defense situations require 50 rounds downrange. There have been a couple of times where I brought along a 30-30 just in case, but have never needed it. I prefer 44/45 calibers, but my normal carry is 38+P. If I take at least one BG with me, it will be OK by me.
 
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't carry, but I have no desire to walk around with five or so pounds of hardware on my person. I prefer to carry a single J-frame and, on rare occasions, a reload.

Am I running the risk of being insufficiently armed? Sure. But the way I look at it is this: the odds of me needing to use my carry gun on any given day are 10,000 to one. The odds of my revolver malfunctioning when I pull the trigger are likewise 10,000 to one. The odds of both happening together are 100 million to one. I have a greater risk of getting struck by lightning, but I don't feel the need to affix a lightning rod to my hat. ;)


Thank you!!! :)
 
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