The internet - the best free reloading instructor around

[buckbeans]

I need to hear from experienced reloader to render their opinion..
I have been reloading for many years and have never had a kaboom( knock on wood)
Just spent a couple of hours on sunday teaching a guy and his son the very basics of reloading with a rockchucker supreme kit and had them reload 15 38 special loads.
I told them to hold off on other calibers especially the semiauto's until they can get the hang of it and have the time to read up the loading manuals and spend more time with other reloaders so they can have a more secure and safe transition.
Well, 48 hours later I find out that they have already bought a 45 auto die set citing that they have obtained plenty of information from the internet and are now ready to go it!!!
I am very concerned and was wondering if the experienced reloaders share my concern.
Please feel free to chime in and give your opinion and experience on this matter.

 

[Dragon88]

I learned from the internet. If you are very thorough in your searching and reading, everything you need to know about reloading is online. Also 45 isn't any harder than 38 special. Same process besides the OAL and crimp.

 

[buckbeans]

thanks dragon
let me ask you this
What kind of problem do you see in a 40 S&W brass being sized incorrectly?

 

[Carnage_7]

The Internet can be a wonderful tool if used correctly. However to rely on the Internet 100% is a mistake IMO. Do the new reloaders have any reloading manuals to refer to?

 

[Snapping Twig]

I guess it all depends on the person. In my case, I am self taught from books pre interweb.

You did what you could, now it's up to them.

Enjoy the fact that you laid their foundation.

 

[buckbeans]

carnage
me thinks that in 48 hours they could not have read the manual if they were watching the internet so closely. I will have to ask him if he bought one.

 

[scattershot]

The internet is a great resource, but double check everything you read. Some guy telling about his Uncle Fester's favorite .44mag load using crushed matchheads and detacord might not be too safe.

 

[buckbeans]

The message to bring forth is " Go Slow".

 

[Jellybean]

The internet is the information highway. Unfortunately it's also the misinformation interstate. Anyone can post information and there is no way to verify if they know what they are talking about or not. But then there is at least one reloading manual I don't particularily care for either.

 

[dla]

Here's a way to view it: A book is an information container and access mechanism - nothing more. The internet is an access mechanism to many information containers.

Now the containers may be full of doo-doo - including the book. A book is not a sacred source for all cartridges. And a book is static, i.e. frozen in time, meanwhile things change (which explains why people still buy Rockchuckers and use Bullseye - they read the same old books).

If you go to a store that carries many reloading manuals, you normally don't buy them all, but instead you try to pick the best one. The internet allows you to pick the best while having access to all. But you have to be diligent to avoid containers of doo-doo.

Forums are a container and often rife with doo-doo. So you don't want to take "forum wisdom" as fact unless you cross check it with data from one or more other containers. And even then you have to be careful of cross pollution as bad information gets copied to many other containers without question.

So use the Internet, use common sense and do your homework to find trusted sources. Avoid crap that starts with "if it ain't broke don't fix it" or "if it was good enough for X then why question it?" - that stuff is dangerous non-think.

Have fun. I do.

 

[WNC Seabee]

I learned primarily via the web and have never had a "ka boom".

As was mentioned above, books aren't sacred they've just been around longer. When I was researching I spent a lot of time on the forums, and reading what's available. If you read enough, you can learn to pick out the garbage from the gold.

Then, when I was ready to start, I made sure to pull my load data from reputable sources such as Hodgdon or Speer...the same folks that print the book format of the manuals.

So, I don't see a difference other than it's a bit awkward taking my laptop to the can when catching up on my reading.

 

[hsguy]

When I started reloading I bought two mauals and read them cover to cover before setting up the equipment. I then proceeded step by step while referring to the manual as I went. I have had good results and am pleased with the ammo I have turned out. I still reread the various manuals to keep my memory fresh. I remember a doctor friend of mine who always reread his notes or books before he taught or performed an other than most basic procedure, he said it kept it fresh in his mind. The internet is a useful tool but as a previous poster mentioned there is no assurance as to the quality of the material found there. My rule of thumb is if a load or technique does't make sense don't do it unless confirmed by a reliable source.

Just an aside, I found the Lee manual very basic and understandable when I first started out and the load data seems quite conservative which is not a bad thing for a beginner. The instructional portion of the book is focused on their products but the principles transfer well to other brands of reloading tools. The book is a bit folksy in extolling the virtues of their products, put me in mind of the old Herters catalogs, but I found it more enjoyable than a strict technical manual. I have several other manuals now but still pull out the Lee on occasion. The problem I have found is that many of the maunuals published by the powder and bullet companies are naturally skewed towards their products and the range of data is rather sometimes scant for other powders and bullets.

 

[acl864]

Everyone talks about the worst case scenario of misinformation posted on the internet but from my experience there is a whole lot more good info than bad. There are also lots of folks who take the time to caution newbies when they stray into dangerous territory.
When I started reloading I was 17 with one manual, no mentor and the internet was decades away from common use. I would have been MUCH better off if I had access to a resource like this forum and several other reloading forums I frequent. Is using the internet as the only means of education and info a good idea for a beginning reloader? No. But then again the way I started out wasn't a good idea either. I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks back at my early reloading days and is grateful to still have all of my fingers.
You need to caution the novices you helped get started that it is wise to confirm the data and info they receive on the internet, preferably with a loading manual(s) or an experienced reloader like yourself. But for the most part if they are not responsible enough to use some common sense in applying data from ANY source and follow basic safety precautions while reloading, they are probably just as dangerous with a loading manual as they are with the internet. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Dragon88]

There *is* an assurance of quality for some information on the internet. For example, a reloading data center on one of the manufacturer's websites. I reference those just as much as I do reloading manuals. Also, most good sources you read on the internet will tell you: buy and read a reloading manual, cross reference data, etc etc etc. All the same stuff an instructor would tell them.

On the flip side, outdated reloading books and "old time" reloaders who have been handloading for X number of years can be filled with just as much misinformation as the internet. They've been doing something a certain way since 1950 and no person on the internet is going to tell them different. That can be just as dangerous as a bad forum post.

Finally, common sense is the key above all else. No matter how someone learns, reloading requires a lot of plain old common sense. Sometimes that can't be gained from a real instructor -or- the internet. Anyone getting into reloading should assess their willingness to learn and do it right, and they take responsibility for their actions. After that comes experience doing it, and again, no instructor or web forum can give them that. Guide perhaps, but not give.

 

[PDL]

That's what I couldn't understand.
Why do most of the nay sayers think that the info is from 'uncle fester's recipie' as someone said.
All of the powder manufacturers have internet versions of their reloading data. RCBS has a full series of reloading videos.
Just cause it's in print vs on screen doesn't gaurantee success.
If you helped to give them the basic safe approach, that's all you need to be concerned with.

 

[buckbeans]

My concern is they were moving too rapidly. I would have preferred they had the chance to develop good habits first before going on to a more complicated load without getting the basics set in stone.
To Dragon, the reason I mentioned the 40S&W is a fellow on an Arizona shooting forum who did have a kaboom with his Sig after only reloading for a week. The plastic pistol apparently cracked in half after a Kaboom and after being studied by the factory traced back to an error resizing his brass. I did not get specifics on his error in technique

 

[Aticus]

I have got to wade in on this one. I have some experience dealing with new reloaders and nothing scares me more than to hear some one say they got their info on the net. When pressed for more info you hear something like "I got it from users" that is truly scary! 99.9% of these well meaning folks don't know about the manufacturers web site or that the info they need is there! They are looking for quick info and if it comes from an "experienced" forum poster or blogger that saves a lot of time and trouble. While I grant to all you "geeks" out there the world wide web is a magnificent source of information it is not the only source and newbies can't tell the trash from the good. You have no idea how many times I've been asked by a newbie "What's the best load for my (insert caliber here)?

The main reason I refer new reloaders to the books is that these books are written by PROFESSIONALS whose butt is on the line if there is bad info not some unknown bozo who perhaps doesn't know much more than the newbie. Now before any of you go off the deep end and start bragging about how many years you've been reloading and all the loads you've developed let me explain that I've been reloading for 25 years and have reloaded for 22 centerfire to 45 centerfire in both long gun and hand gun with both smokeless and black powders. I've used single stage and progressive presses. That DOES NOT make me an expert but I am a very experienced and knowledgeable amateur and I DON'T use load data from any source I don't trust. That includes sources on the WWW.

These are just my thoughts and my opinion feel free to take your best shot.

Pecos

 

[WNC Seabee]

...and I DON'T use load data from any source I don't trust. That includes sources on the WWW.

These are just my thoughts and my opinion feel free to take your best shot.

Pecos

Would you consider this site less than reliable?

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

or this one...

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

or...

Speer Bullets - New Reloading Data

Some of the premier "Manual" publishers post their data on the web. Web-based resources are not limited to forums and blogs.

 

[acl864]

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

I use alot of Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester powders specifically because they post comprehensive data online. Try to find a good load for SR-7625 in 357 Mag using a 158 gr. LSWC bullet in a printed load manual. Hodgdon has min/max loads listed for this powder on their website and it's an excellent powder choice for a mid-range 357 Mag load. It's just not a tradtional powder choice so the printed manuals usually omit the listing. I would have never thought of using this powder myself if not for the recommendation from a guy on a forum who was obtaining excellent results with it. I like and use both sources of knowledge- printed manuals and online info.

I say again- IMO folks who don't do their homework and take proper precautions with reloading are just as dangerous with manuals as they are with info they get online.

 

[buckbeans]

I agree that manufacturer's websites are valid since they stand behind their products and information.
Again the issue was getting and following an experienced loader"s recommendations vs going out on you own with just the internet as your guide.

In this particular case, would you shoot the newbies 40 S&W loads in your brand new Glock 48 hours after they got two hours worth of instruction?