The mire gets deeper for Boeing

[LVSteve]

After watching the video on performance planning/data input at the panel/page located on the far left of the instrument panel I was struck by the myriad of flap and thrust settings the pilot could select. Some of the outcomes, such as runway used and rate of climb seemed to be based on consideration other than safe operation like engine wear and EMMISSIONS. Also the normal/acceptable rate of climb the 787 achieves with those settings looks very shallow to me, even with both engines running. The performance with one engine out after V1 appears to be minimal with some of the many possible setting the pilot could select. I'm guessing that flap and thrust settings may be directed by company SOP, which might not always be the safest. Then there are multiple points where the pilot could easily input parameters into the system that puts the aircraft right on the edge of the envelope. The critical nature of the take-off roll with power set, V1 (we are flying, regardless), VR (rotate) and V2 etched in stone for safe operation one must wonder if all the numbers were entered correctly. The Performance/Take off device looks like a very handy tool for computing take off numbers but it could allow the pilot to enter some not so safe data.

The 787 style takeoff and climbout throttle fiddling used to be done manually by some airlines at certain airports. British Airways definitely used to do this with their 747s in the 90s and early 2000s. First time on a 747-200 out of Heathrow flying to DC scared to whatsit out of me. How we didn't take half the perimeter fence at takeoff I don't know. Had a similar experience leaving LAX for London. He throttled back so much I felt that we must be riding the layer of smog to stay out of the sea.

No such shenanigans when BA operated 747-400s out of Vegas. 113°F and over 2000' AMSL probably put us in the "hot and high" category. Pilot gunned it and got some major rate of of climb looking for cooler air, I guess. Even so, that takeoff was nothing like what you get with an Airbus 350. That thing pins you back.

 

[MDF4]

As RW4 noted, it also makes me wonder if the numbers input were correct.

 

[soFlaNative]

I'm sure everyone has seen the CCTV video of the entire 30 second flight, any thoughts?

 

[Retired W4]

I'm sure everyone has seen the CCTV video of the entire 30 second flight, any thoughts?

Gear down, flaps and throttle where ever, nose pitched up. Why fly a perfectly good 787 into the ground like that? I'll bet the TAWS (or whatever they had) was yelling at them. Pull up, Pull up. My son just finished his re-current training in a FedEx 767 after retiring from the USAF. I will ask him if he has the same performance info panel as the one in the 787.

 

[venomballistics]

Boeing may have won the F-47 contract, but yesterday SecDef said the USAF should cancel the E-7 project (E-3 replacement) and today a 787 went in big time in India. One survivor. The video of it going down should tell the experts something, I'm sure. Engine sound was odd to me.

Air India crash latest: At least 200 killed in Air India plane crash as one British passenger survives

The plane carrying 242 people, including 169 Indian nationals and 53 Britons, hit a residential area, with some on the ground also feared dead.

www.bbc.com

the Air India was due to running it like a rented mule and maintaining it worse.
A passenger of a prior flight went through a list of thing he found not working in a video.
While it was mostly luxury features, it was indicative of how little a wrench met it's acquaintance

 

[WR Moore]

While watching part of the tutorial on the 787 I was struck by the amount of data needed to be input into a computer so the plane will fly. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's a good idea. We've had controls that signal computers what the pilot wants to do and computers actually-if they agree given their information-move the controlling bits for quite awhile. This might not be the first time incorrect data caused a crash (Airbus had some). I'm not real sure I actually saw a manual control in the the command pilots area. Lotta buttons/screens though.

That said, I used to fly quite a bit and it's been quite awhile. But, IIRC, I always heard the gear go up before the flaps did. Removing drag took precedence over reducing lift.

 

[SMSgt]

I'm sure everyone has seen the CCTV video of the entire 30 second flight, any thoughts?

To start with, runways are very long for a reason. A pilot should start a takeoff on the first third of it, not the last third.

 

[ACORN]

Capt. Steve on the tube thinks that the pilot flying may have called for gear up and the co-pilot accidentally retracted the flaps decreasing lift and not reducing the drag of the gear.
He said that once the pilot throttles up for takeoff the 787 will throw all kinds of warnings if the aircraft’s settings aren’t properly set for takeoff.
I know nothing about flying but I like his videos

 

[Retired W4]

The gear handle typically is in the shape of a tire and the flap is in the shape of a...flap. You can find bone heads in every occupation, including pilots. After I command "Gear up" I like to hear my co-pilot say gear in transit, then gear is up. Gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

 

[lihpster]

Capt. Steve on the tube thinks that the pilot flying may have called for gear up and the co-pilot accidentally retracted the flaps decreasing lift and not reducing the drag of the gear.
He said that once the pilot throttles up for takeoff the 787 will throw all kinds of warnings if the aircraft’s settings aren’t properly set for takeoff.
I know nothing about flying but I like his videos

He has gotten new info and changed his mind. He now says it was dual engine failure, most likely. the Ram Air Turbine was deployed. This happens automatically under 3 conditions: Electrical failure, hydraulic failure and dual engine failure. That's the prop noise in the video, the strange sound. Also, the survivor said he heard a loud bang and the lights flickered. The lights flickering was probably when the RAT deployed to provide power to the aircraft. And finally, it appears the pilot was able to send a mayday where he said, "No power."
I'm no pilot, but it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Rudi]

They found the black box"which is orange", so some answers may be coming soon.

 

[rwsmith]

Capt. Steve on the tube thinks that the pilot flying may have called for gear up and the co-pilot accidentally retracted the flaps decreasing lift and not reducing the drag of the gear.
He said that once the pilot throttles up for takeoff the 787 will throw all kinds of warnings if the aircraft’s settings aren’t properly set for takeoff.
I know nothing about flying but I like his videos

OMG. I'd rather see a malfunction than have a person kill that many people with a boneheaded mistake. What I have seen on a lot of 'Mayday' episodes is that the plane flies its own way if it gets some bad info. Just watched one where the pilots were diving to get to the glide slope into the airport and one bad altimeter (out of three) made the plane think that it was already on the ground and auto throttled the engines back with the pilots being too busy to notice and when they expected to have power, they didn't and they were too low to see it and correct it in time.

 

[Retired W4]

OMG. I'd rather see a malfunction than have a person kill that many people with a boneheaded mistake. What I have seen on a lot of 'Mayday' episodes is that the plane flies its own way if it gets some bad info. Just watched one where the pilots were diving to get to the glide slope into the airport and one bad altimeter (out of three) made the plane think that it was already on the ground and auto throttled the engines back with the pilots being too busy to notice and when they expected to have power, they didn't and they were too low to see it and correct it in time.

There is this condition we look for called the "Stabilized Approach". Diving to get on the GS is not stabilized and the approach should be abandoned. Compounding a bad situation by doing stupid stuff can result in a real mess. That holds true in every day life, but when a couple hundred souls are depending on your action so they can wake up the next morning you need to get it right.

I would rather not speculate but one thing keeps coming to mind, and that is the human factor, whether it's pilot error, faulty maintenance or shoddy risk assessment (to avoid a massive bird strike, etc.). Take offs are optional...landings are not.

 

[WR Moore]

If anyone can find a copy of "The Man Who Rode the Thunder", you can find out what a really bad flight-short of death-can be like.