The old progressive dilema

[2152hq]

I have a Square Deal,,not even the 'B', so it's been around a while. I bought it new either in the late 70's or early 80's.
I like it and load 38 & 9mm on it as that's what I shoot most in a handgun. Everything else is done on single stage press and there are a lot of different calibers!

Doing it over again I'd probably have added a Dillon 550 or similar progressive for the rifle rounds too.
It's getting old reloading even a single box of '06 or 30-30, ect for the common rifles.
I'd like to be able to crank out a good supply for each to last a while then change the machine and run another caliber.
The single stage presses (3) would still be used for the odd ones like 470NE and the metrics that don't normally get as many rounds thru them. I don't need to crank out a few hundred 500x3in NE or 9.3x74R rds.
I wouldn't mind being able to load all the 35Rem brass I have in one sitting and be done with it though.

The SD would stay too, it still cranks out great ammo and is one press I really like. I can't use the wall full of standard dies I have in it though,,one of the draw backs to it.

I went to a Mec progressive shotshell press about 15 years ago in 12ga.
Still have single stage presses in 20 and 410. What a drag having to load a few boxes on those after working with the progressive.
A well tuned and working progressive sure can spoil you!

 

[fredj338]

I forgot about the 450's. Something to consider!

I'm not in this for monstrous piles of ammo manufacturing as I was more than happy to load 150ish in an hour. However that's 750 handle pulls on the turret (remember I prime with auto prime 2). With a progressive it'll be a lot less obviously. Spending the money to make such small batches for me is a hard pill to swallow, until my shoulder starts tensing up. I'm only 35 and this isn't getting any better so it is what it is. Thanks everyone.

Ok, this is just me but at 35, you have at least 25yrs of shooting. Buy a 550 with goodies new, call it $600, you already have scale, calipers, etc. So over the next 25yrs, that press will cost you $2/month?!?!?! The press will never wear out & if it does, Dillon will rebuild it free. There is nothing you can do for $2/month & get even close to the return on investment. Far too many shooters agonize over buying quality, trouble free gear, but happily plop down $$ for factory ammo. Bite the bullet, buy a new 550, done. You'll never need another press, never wear it out. That can not be said about most things we buy.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Ok, this is just me but at 35, you have at least 25yrs of shooting. Buy a 550 with goodies new, call it $600, you already have scale, calipers, etc. So over the next 25yrs, that press will cost you $2/month?!?!?! The press will never wear out & if it does, Dillon will rebuild it free. There is nothing you can do for $2/month & get even close to the return on investment. Far too many shooters agonize over buying quality, trouble free gear, but happily plop down $$ for factory ammo. Bite the bullet, buy a new 550, done. You'll never need another press, never wear it out. That can not be said about most things we buy.

I'm really leaning towards a Dillon at this point. I'm not a brand snob or anything either. The hornady also seems like a great press. I love my rcbs equipment however their pricing seems through the roof.

While I like my Lee classic cast a lot I think I'm going to pass on their progressives. I'm just not in the mood to become a tinkerer with it although I am capable. Being a father of a 3 year old uses up all of my patience these days already.

The ONLY thing I'm not fond of about the 550 is the non auto index. I know this is always brought up and not really an issue. I just "prefer" auto. Absolutely not a deal breaker though. This leaves me with the SDB, LNL, and 650. The 650 is getting up there in price while the SDB leaves single stage for rifle and proprietary dies. And for some reason I've always wanted an SDB. I see them pop up on the used market sometimes around $250 which I can probably swing already.

Maybe the 550 is the right choice anyway? I guess it'll probably go more like what's available on the used market when I have cash? I'll throw up a wtb ad and see what comes up. Of course, anyone who has a press they'd like to part with now feel free to pm me. Maybe we can work out a deal? Plus I always have the turret I could sell.

 

[Boogsawaste]

By the way, everyone's post was read, considered, and appreciated. Thanks for your experiences.

 

[canvsbk]

I procrastinated for decades and now have 550. Got it used so there was some issues. One call to Dillon and all is perfect now. Wish they built pick up trucks.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I would like to input some info on the non-self indexing presses. The only self indexing reloading press I own is a 12 to 15 year old MEC 9000 in 12 gauge. This year I bought 2 brand new MEC "Grabber" presses in 410 and 28. Considering the operator error I have with the wide mouthed 9000, I decided to pass on self indexing to help control the number of things that could go wrong. On Metallic presses it is much simpler, with the auto priming adjusted properly and the case actuated powder drop. On the RL 450/550b, if there is no case in that slot; it is a non-issue. My F-I-L has 2 of the Dillon RL 1050's and a friend has an old original RL 1000, I am very familiar with the pleasures and pit falls of the self indexing presses (along with my horrid experience with the L-N-L AP never indexed correctly). On the 1050's I have turned out 500 rounds in about 20 minutes, but someone else kept the cases, primers, powder and bullet tray full (and at that rate a 3rd person can only keep 2 1050's filled up). Pretty much I have the same limitations on a shotshell or metallic case press. PRIMER SUPPLY is the biggest bottle neck (of a non-mechanical failure problem). I have 11 tubes for large primers (and 6 small). I fill the primer magazine and all 11 tubes, for most hand gun rounds that is 2.5+ hours and about 3.25 for many rifle rounds. It is defiantly time for a break, and I found 6 or so hours was the limit for a day.

The biggest fear mentioned was a double charge. I never had one in production, and the few I did have were in set up and adjustment. Those rounds don't get bullets.

Originally the RL 450 was indexed by grasping a cartridge, an early factory update added a 4 armed handle to index with, but on larger cartridges it is sometimes easier to grab the round. IT REALLY HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE with anyone that actually used a Dillon 450 or 550.

In 1985 I told my best friend to forgo his next gun purchase and buy a (new) RL450, Did he? NO!!! In about 2008 he picked up an old used RL450, and was immediately sorry he had waited so long. When he posted in this Forum about it, Dillon PM ed him to let him know that his press was still under warranty, and small missing pieces were still available.

Have I broke or lost parts? YUP you bet! Did I need to pay for that? Sometimes! It depends on what part and if you are buying something else they can slip it in the package with. For example; I had the spent primer shoot wear out, In that call I also ordered some shell plates that I didn't have. I also had dropped the ball that holds the shell plate in proper alignment down a heating vent (second time!) I keep the spare parts kit for such emergencies, but I then need another. Since I was already paying freight, the gave me the 39 cent part for free.

Have fun with the choice you make, If you don't like it, choose again and sell the mistake. Reloading and Unloading ammo is a joy many "FREE" countries' citizens don't get to enjoy!

Ivan

 

[Clovishound]

The press will never wear out & if it does, Dillon will rebuild it free.

Sorry, but that statement doesn't cut the mustard any more.

Dillon may build good stuff and have great CS, but if they discontinue a model, apparently, you are out of luck.

Not saying that isn't different than anyone else's products either, but nobody takes care of your gear forever, not even Dillon.

 

[M16]

I have a lot of presses. Nine Dillons in all. (5) square deal b's (2) 550's and (2) 650's. I really like the square deal b's. Great reloaders but limited to handgun ammunition. For ease of use they are the best.

Although I own two of them I've never understood the fascination with the 550's. Mine get very little use. Why buy a progressive without auto indexing?

The 650 with the case feed is the cat's meow. As long as everything works right. They are kind of expensive but worth every penny.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I shoot mostly handgun rounds in about 8 cal(15K/year vs 500 for rifles).I've got a Dillon RL300 which is the granddaddy of the 550 set up for all my small primer calibers(9mm,.38Spl,.357 Mag and some .45ACP SP).My Square Deal is set up for,you guessed it large primers rds(.45 Colt,.45ACP,.44 and .41 Mag).My rifle rds are loaded on a single stage RCBS Rockchucker.
If I'd have to have only one,I'd go without a doubt with the Dillon 550.

Qc

 

[fredj338]

Sorry, but that statement doesn't cut the mustard any more.

Dillon may build good stuff and have great CS, but if they discontinue a model, apparently, you are out of luck.
U
Not saying that isn't different than anyone else's products either, but nobody takes care of your gear forever, not even Dillon.

Well sure, if they disc a model, no parts to rebuild, but point, you'll get your $$ worth over 30-35yrs.
As to manual indexing, just not an issue for anyone with adult attention span. You visually verify powder drop, place the bullet as you manually advance. Its almost idiot proof. The best part about manual indexing is if there is an issue, you can fix it more readily, before anutoindexing advances. There is no speed advantage to auto index, you wait for the shell plate to adv to set a bullet or you adv while you set a bullet. The best part about a 550 is its dead bang simple.
Thirty years ago i did not buy a sdb, got the 550 instead. I would never buy a press with proprietary dies & no rifle & some limits on other pistol, like 357sig. The $100 diff, who cares, that is 500rds of 9mm factory, a good weekend of shooting. A 650 is a great press but really needs a case feeder. That also makes it mor complicated & expensive & unkess you need 500rds + in an hour, unnecessary.

 

[iouri]

There are presses other than Dillon ?

 

[les.b]

Good lord!!! I've been loading 46 years on my RCBS single stage press. I load for about 20 calibers. I guess that I'm just an anachronism....I have thought about progressive presses, but every time I get ready to buy, some gun that I've "wanted all my life" turns up. You guys make me feel like the old timer that I am!!

One thing that struck me above, is the poster who likes to have a tray of 50 rounds to look across to see that there are no double or more charges, and no missed charges. That's me. I'm going back and read his post again.

Best Regards

 

[jimbo728]

Im still using a 38 year old Rock Chucker. In 1991 I added the Piggyback
to load handgun rounds progressive. When I load rifle Calibers the Piggyback easily detaches to go back to single stage.
I understand disability, profoundly, and with that being said I still am very happy with this set up.
Jim

 

[Thomas15]

I see you are in Quakertown. If you are interested and if it's still available, I (think) I know where there is a Dillon 450 for $100.00 Read about this press up thread. The press is in the Allentown area. PM me if interested. I have no interest in the sale one way or the other and I don't know if that is a fair price or not. As of a week ago it was available not sure if it still is.

 

[Deadctr]

If the OP doesn't take the 450 in Allentown, PM me, I'll grab it up.

By the way, I have to agree with VanMan. I have a loadmaster, and I've run over 10K of 9mm through it. Yes every now and again I get a turned primer. Never had a double charge (almost impossible on a LM). It indexes automatically, shells feed automatically, and crimps at a dedicated station.

The trick to a Loadmaster (and any press) is a rock solid mount. And I mean rock solid as in NO MOVEMENT. It's worth the effort to keep your presses dead solid.

The only real PITA with the LM is the emptying of spent primers, But I can overlook that for saving a couple hundred dollars.

 

[Huskerguy]

Boogs

Not sure where you are at in all of this so here is my 1 cents worth.

I too looked and read until I just finally made a decision. I load 6 handgun and 2 rifle calibers. I didn't mind the old Pacific SS I had, still use it. Wanted the ability to sit down and crank out some serious rounds because at that time, my time was pretty valuable and in short supply.

A friend has the original Square D and loves it to this day. He also was given a 650 for Christmas a few years ago and it took quite a bit of time to master, and this guy is a machinist by trade, no slouch. He now lives a few hours away and we got together a couple of weeks ago and he was having some problems with his 650 priming.

I did all of my research taking into consideration what I wanted to accomplish. I didn't want auto indexing, I wanted progressive, I wanted to use my existing dies, I priced every caliber change, I wanted five stations with a powder cop/check die as starters. After all of that I ended up with a LNL and have never looked back.

I don't find my LNL any different than my friends in 650 in the initial set up process and keeping the system clean and functioning. He gets powder spills that shut things down just as a LNL owner will.

My conclusion is that the trick is in the initial set up and taking time to fully understand what happens at each stroke. There are lots of moving parts and at first I didn't like that, I have to admit. There are primer shuttles moving, primers dropping, shell plates rotating and flexing, brass lining up, powder dropping, and all sorts of other things.

Sit down, calculate the costs and the features. I could have been happy with a 650 which I think more closely competes with the LNL but I chose the red machine and it has worked very well for me. There are just a ton of factors to consider besides the color and I am convinced that set up and fully understanding each operation is the key. It is not a "plug and play" system although some would have you believe it is.

Good luck

 

[Boogsawaste]

I see you are in Quakertown. If you are interested and if it's still available, I (think) I know where there is a Dillon 450 for $100.00 Read about this press up thread. The press is in the Allentown area. PM me if interested. I have no interest in the sale one way or the other and I don't know if that is a fair price or not. As of a week ago it was available not sure if it still is.

Pm'd! Thanks, Allentown is 15 minutes away.

 

[springer99]

Boogs

Not sure where you are at in all of this so here is my 1 cents worth.

I too looked and read until I just finally made a decision. I load 6 handgun and 2 rifle calibers. I didn't mind the old Pacific SS I had, still use it. Wanted the ability to sit down and crank out some serious rounds because at that time, my time was pretty valuable and in short supply.

A friend has the original Square D and loves it to this day. He also was given a 650 for Christmas a few years ago and it took quite a bit of time to master, and this guy is a machinist by trade, no slouch. He now lives a few hours away and we got together a couple of weeks ago and he was having some problems with his 650 priming.

I did all of my research taking into consideration what I wanted to accomplish. I didn't want auto indexing, I wanted progressive, I wanted to use my existing dies, I priced every caliber change, I wanted five stations with a powder cop/check die as starters. After all of that I ended up with a LNL and have never looked back.

I don't find my LNL any different than my friends in 650 in the initial set up process and keeping the system clean and functioning. He gets powder spills that shut things down just as a LNL owner will.

My conclusion is that the trick is in the initial set up and taking time to fully understand what happens at each stroke. There are lots of moving parts and at first I didn't like that, I have to admit. There are primer shuttles moving, primers dropping, shell plates rotating and flexing, brass lining up, powder dropping, and all sorts of other things.

Sit down, calculate the costs and the features. I could have been happy with a 650 which I think more closely competes with the LNL but I chose the red machine and it has worked very well for me. There are just a ton of factors to consider besides the color and I am convinced that set up and fully understanding each operation is the key. It is not a "plug and play" system although some would have you believe it is.

Good luck

I was in the same boat not too long ago, and was considering upgrading from my Lee CTP. Looked at the 550 and 650 Dillon products; not the Square Deal as I wanted to keep using all my existing dies. Also considered the LnL AP press. Although many said that their production rates with the 550 press was more than adequate, coming from my auto-indexing Lee, it just seemed like going to the Dillon 550 would be like taking a step backwards. I couldn't justify going to the 650. I ended up going to the Hornady LnL AP press which gave me 5 holes and auto-indexing. I've only been using it for a few months not, but it's been performing great. Of course, getting 500 free XTP's for my 44Mag didn't hurt. Extra benefit is that the Horndy support seems to be great and there's a lot of options out there for obtaining accessories from multiple sources.

 

[Thomas15]

................snip.........My conclusion is that the trick is in the initial set up and taking time to fully understand what happens at each stroke. There are lots of moving parts and at first I didn't like that, I have to admit. There are primer shuttles moving, primers dropping, shell plates rotating and flexing, brass lining up, powder dropping, and all sorts of other things.........end snip......

It seems like press selection is an emotional thing for many handloaders. My feeling is there are several reasons for this but like all tools you get what you pay for. A complicated low cost progressive is, by the rules of nature, going to have some built-in compromises to accommodate it's low cost and an expensive single stage will have perhaps some extra something that appeals to those who are willing to spend more than average. But in general more money means more speed.

I do not understand the attitude that is at the core of some who imply in hushed tones that shooters who pump out lots of ammo quickly are somehow not paying attention to quality. I also don't understand the smugness of those who opt for low cost and imply also in hushed tones that they are somehow the smarter, more informed consumer.

Huskerguy, I agree with you 100%, I have a LNL and spent a lot of time researching the purchase. I've been handloading for about 3 years and have spent a ton of money on this hobby. I can afford any commercially available press on the market but since I have spent so much in such a small amount of time I needed to draw the line.

Having processed somewhere over 10k rounds and actually closer to 15k on my LNL over the last year I can say it does it's job well. A few weeks ago I had a minor issue and had to call Hornady for a new part which they sent promptly and at no cost. In the meantime I completely disassembled the press, and I mean completely took it apart. I now have a much better understanding of how it works and have it running better than ever.

So add to my list of people I don't understand are those who say thay had this press and couldn't get it to work. Out of the box my RCBS rock chucker, Lee SS and RCBS turret press worked well. But I have made a few modifications, small things to all of them to get better performance from them. I'm not a mechanical wizard, just an average Joe so if I can do it just about anyone can.

And that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Well as of earlier this afternoon I officially became a Dillon owner. Nothing new or fancy but on the tip off of Thomas15 I picked up a 450rl for $100 out the door. It is in the original box, original styrofoam, receipt from 1983 and all! Included a set of carbide does from rcbs in 45acp along with the matching shell plate. Has the manual powder measure but upgraded to the auto primer feed. Owner even kept the original manual primer feed parts!

Unfortunately no small pistol tube for the automatic primer feeder but it has the slider bar for them. So I'll have to buy the tube it looks like and some shell plates and I'll be loading!

Are the shell plates the same for the 550 and 450?