The problem with some holsters

[Rastoff]

Woman accidentally kills self adjusting bra holster

This is an article about a woman who shot herself in the eye while trying to adjust the gun in her bra holster.

Rule 2 is: Never cover anything with the muzzle you're not willing to destroy. There are some holsters that cause the user to cover vital parts with their muzzle. Some are willing to take that risk. That's fine with me, but understand that the risk exists.

 

[MichiganScott]

Woman accidentally kills self adjusting bra holster

This is an article about a woman who shot herself in the eye while trying to adjust the gun in her bra holster.

Rule 2 is: Never cover anything with the muzzle you're not willing to destroy. There are some holsters that cause the user to cover vital parts with their muzzle. Some are willing to take that risk. That's fine with me, but understand that the risk exists.

When my wife first started carrying, she looked at bra holsters. There is no way you can carry and draw without pointing the muzzle at parts of the body neither of us wanted shot.

 

[tops]

I consider all of my parts to be vital. What kind of holster do you recomend that in the event the gun goes go bang some part of the body won't be damaged? Larry

 

[Old cop]

I sometimes carry my J frame IWB, appendix and have thought about "what if." However, after 40 + years of doing this uneventfully it should be okay, but I'd never be comfortable doing this w/a semi auto. Don't know why, but even the modern double action auto loaders w/a safety make me nervous.

 

[bhayles]

I consider all of my parts to be vital. What kind of holster do you recomend that in the event the gun goes go bang some part of the body won't be damaged? Larry

I carry a Glock mod 22 IWB in a Galco hybrid, right side at 4 o'clock, and while I suppose I could get shot by myself, it would be hard to do...and a 40 cal crease in my right butt cheek is the worst that would happen.

 

[bhayles]

I sometimes carry my J frame IWB, appendix and have thought about "what if." However, after 40 + years of doing this uneventfully it should be okay, but I'd never be comfortable doing this w/a semi auto. Don't know why, but even the modern double action auto loaders w/a safety make me nervous.

Even the thought of an ND while carrying appendix almost doubles me over in pain...

 

[Rastoff]

I consider all of my parts to be vital. What kind of holster do you recomend that in the event the gun goes go bang some part of the body won't be damaged? Larry

OWB on your hip is the safest carry method. Unfortunately, every method of carry includes some risk. However, carrying OWB is the least likely to muzzle yourself or others.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I agree with Rastoff.

There are further steps that you can take to avoid shooting yourself (or perhaps others). When holstering the pistol, you need a really good reason to believe that you aren't going to accidentally actuate the trigger. Holster design helps a lot, but it is probably a good idea to hold the hammer back, if the pistol is cocked, until the gun is in the holster. If you are holstering a revolver or an uncocked DA autoloader, it would be good idea to hold the hammer down, so you would feel it if the trigger were catching on the holster. Unfortunately, this is kind of hard to do on striker-fired pistols and Centennials. With the latter, you can perhaps put your finger behind the trigger until the gun is almost completely in, or, in the case of the original Centennials, rely on the grip safety, if that is your idea of a good time. Obviously, that is done by inserting the gun while not depressing the grip safety.

With striker-fired autos, perhaps you can get your finger behind the trigger while holstering the pistol. With Glocks, the safety in the center of the trigger probably prevents a holster-activated discharge. Despite the number of "ADs" attributed to holstering a Glock, I cannot help but believe that a very large number of them involve lying about the circumstances of the discharge. I do not expect a Glock to discharge from holstering unless the user has his finger on the trigger, and I do not expect someone who had his finger on the trigger to admit it. Other striker-fired pistols without a safety are, IMO, a [rare] accident waiting to happen. Probably won't happen that often, but not necessarily pretty when it does.

Almost forgot the most important thing. Don't play with the gun in the holster, and NEVER make covert adjustments unless the gun is fully and safely holstered. Once you've safely holstered it, leave it alone. If you have to handle the gun for some reason, do it openly, unconcealed, and follow ALL of the safety rules. The reason for doing it openly is so that you will not, for sake of concealment, compromise some safety rule. Always point the gun in a safe direction, and when you get it back into your holster, leave it alone.

 

[tops]

I have been carrying concealed for 57 years (73-16) and I have found that the people that carry DA revolvers and autos with the hammer down or carry striker fired guns with the barrel empty are not the ones shooting themselves. On a DA auto the trigger cocks and fires the gun. If the slide cocks the gun it is a SA. If the slide cocks the auto and it has a long and heavy trigger pull it is a SA with a sorry trigger. Larry

 

[BB57]

Building on the two posts above, striker fired pistols with all the safeties connected to the trigger (like the Glock) became very popular with law enforcement in the US as they represented an easy conversion from DA revolvers, without the need to un-learn and re-learn to operate a manual safety before firing the weapon.

But that use, like the DA revolver, primarily meant use in a OWB duty holster that protected the trigger from any unintentional contact, and presented few obstructions to re-holstering.

Still, the combination of a comparatively lighter trigger weight,a shorter trigger pull (than a DA revolver) and the lack of a hammer to ride while reholstering the weapon (which provides a strong tactile cue that the trigger has encountered an obstruction and is cocking the hammer) still led to officers having ADs while reholstering there weapon - at times just due to the officer being excited after a shoot with the result that he or use maintained their grip on the pistol with their finger inside the trigger guard while attempting to holster the pistol.

Another adrenaline related issue has been officers using retention holsters that have the release in the same general area of the trigger. Under stress, and with less than perfect mastery in training, the trigger finger rides up the holster during the draw and slides inside the trigger guard with the result that a round is then fired into the ground near the officer's foot.

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It's also important to recognize that in Europe, semi-auto pistols were also often intended to be carried in Condition 3 - safety off, with an empty chamber, particularly in military service, so the original intended market(s) for the Glock was not the civilian concealed carry market.

When used for concealed carry, the Glock system poses even greater challenges. Unlike a S&W 36 or similar pistol, with a long DA trigger pull, striker fired pistols with their lack of a hammer, and the above mentioned trigger characteristics they are much more prone to an AD causes by a jacket draw string, a shirt tail, or some other clothing related item getting between the trigger and the holster as the pistol is inserted in the holster. Another risk are soft mouthed, or overly worn leather holsters that will not remain open. The edge of the holster is then able to be bent over enough to enter the trigger guard and de-activate the safeties, while still being still enough to complete the trigger pull as the weapon is pushed into the holster.

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Ideally, if you are carrying a Glock type pistol in an IWB holster, you'd want to use a holster with a belt clip that allows it to be easily removed from the belt, allowing you to holster the pistol with it visible in front of you, then insert the pistol and holster in your waist hand with the trigger fully protected.

Failing that, you need to ensure that the holster stays open inside the waistband when the pistol is in use, so that it can be cleanly re-holstered when you are done. You also need to ensure you can visually observe the pistol going into the holster and that it is free of obstructions. And finally, you need to ensure that if you feel any extra force required to holster the pistol that you just stop and re-assess what is happening.

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At the end of the day, you'll hear a number of people (with widely varying levels of training) who claim in good faith that "my trigger finger is my safety". Yet there are still a distressing number of ADs that occur as this principle is applied on it's own, rather than as part of a larger and better thought out holster/pistol/training system. Regardless of training level, we all have to be cognizant that under extreme stress, we will devolve to the lowest level of mastered training, and that level of training may not include 100% perfect trigger discipline. Consequently, It's not a bad idea to back stop that with other safety steps or devices.

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I'm admittedly old school, but in carrying IWB nearly every day for the last 29 years, I have only done so with SA semi-autos, like the Hi Power and 1911, with DA semi-autos like the CZ 75 Compact, and PP series DA pistols. I will carry these DA semi-autos with the safety off, but I follow the full re-holstering protocol and holster design concepts described above, taking full advantage of the long heavy DA trigger pull, the hammer, and a well designed holster.

 

[Rastoff]

There are some qualities of a good holster that are non-negotiable (at least for me):

• The holster must be sturdy. It must hold the gun without flopping around.
• The holster must cover the trigger. The reason for this should be obvious.
• It must retain the gun through any kind of movement. If you can jump and the gun comes out, that holster is worthless.
• When needed, it must release the gun easily. These last two seem contradictory, but a good holster will do both with ease.
• It must stay open when the gun isn't in the holster.

The above is a list that any holster I'd use must meet. Like most of us, I have a box of unused holsters. Some meet the criteria above and some don't. The only reason I keep the ones that don't is as examples for my CCW class of what not to get.

The last criteria in the list often causes some discussion. The holster must stay open in order to allow reholstering with only one hand. This is important for a couple of reasons. First, you might have a cell phone in your other hand and be talking to the police dispatcher when you want to put your gun away. Then you might be holding something with the other hand.

However, the most important reason for one hand reholstering is avoiding a rule #2 violation. If you have to use two hands to reholster, it will be very difficult to do without covering your support hand with the muzzle.

This is one problem with many IWB holsters; they require two hands to reholster. There are some good ones out there though. Another thing to think about is HOW that one hand reholstering goes. If you have to point the gun inward to kind of pry the holster open to insert the gun, you'll be covering your hip with the muzzle, bad. Yes, it can be done one handed, but there is some risk.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. By all means, use the holster that suits you. Just realize the risks involved.

 

[Rastoff]

Also, the motion for presenting the gun and reholstering is something that should never change. The gun should almost always come out fast. Even if presenting to the ready, do it like you're trying to win a gun fight. When reholstering, it should ALWAYS be done slowly, reluctantly.

This is where most negligent discharges happen. A piece of clothing gets caught in the trigger and, BANG! If you are reholstering slowly, it gives you a chance to feel the extra resistance and correct the situation before it becomes a problem.

 

[Fastbolt]

A tragic incident.

Unknown what actually happened, just based upon the article.

While the cause of this tragic accident may not be determined (or released), there are some situations that can happen which can increase the potential for unintended discharge while handling a gun being holstered or withdrawn from a holster.

Having an errant index finger getting caught inside the trigger guard and shoved against a trigger, by the holster mouth, when holstering.

Getting clothing caught up inside the trigger guard when holstering (especially with lighter triggers which may also include a trigger safety that's disabled when pressure is applied against the trigger face).

Having a gun released and dropped, and then trying to catch the gun, only to have one of the grasping fingers "find" the trigger, and all the fingers clench to control the gun ... unintentionally pulling the trigger.

Mishandling the gun (finger on trigger) and not paying attention to what's being covered by the muzzle.

From the equipment perspective:

A damaged/defective gun mechanism, or improperly maintained (or modified, etc) gun that develops a safety problem.

A holster not suitable for the specific model gun being carried ... or with a defect ... or not properly maintained, and which develops a defect or other problem ... or one with which the owner/user is unfamiliar with proper usage ... or one which might not be suitable or most appropriate for use under the conditions planned for its use.

Want to see something scary? Wait until the first few times you see another shooter have some part of their clothing (like a draw string, or the leading edge of a lightweight jacket) get caught up inside the trigger guard as they shove a gun back into a holster.

Or, see them struggling to shove a gun into the holster, not realizing the safety retention strap has become entangled inside the trigger guard in front of the trigger face.

Holstering is something that requires not only requires the proper equipment choice, but also some serious attention to learning a safe & effective holstering technique, appropriate to the holster design.

It's NOT an afterthought, or something to be rushed through as if it's not an important aspect of safe gun handling.

Speaking about holster maintenance and wear, remember this one?
SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges! | Gunlife Resource Center

 

[ClayCow]

My n82is slow draw. I sacrifice comfort for speed. I just dont think ill need it 1 second faster. Ive seen the stats and distances, but its ny opinion that people twist them to make believe they need to do fast draw in xx% of cases. Id love to have fast draw, but i will not give up comfort.

Ideally glock would have an external safety one can engage when reholstering and disengage upon resholster. But they dont

 

[Rastoff]

"Fast Draw" is a misnomer. You should not be trying to draw fast. You should be presenting deliberately and without extra motion.

Remember, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Be smooth and fast will take care of itself.

 

[sonora]

So where does the Tom Three Persons style holster fit this criteria ? It has an exposed trigger.

 

[federali]

I'm assuming that a bra holster carries the gun muzzle down. Yet, this poor woman shot herself in the eye. It appears that she was not totally familiar with her gun.

 

[ClayCow]

I'm assuming that a bra holster carries the gun muzzle down. Yet, this poor woman shot herself in the eye. It appears that she was not totally familiar with her gun.

Thats probably how most ND or "AD" happen. Person says my finger wasnt on the trigger. Oh yes it was.

I remember when i got my training for the army, that finger automatically curled around that trigger. Took alot of yelling to get that habit kicked out of me.

 

[adwjc]

So where does the Tom Three Persons style holster fit this criteria ? It has an exposed trigger.

Sonora,

the retention strap covers the rear of the hammer and holds it down, your finger should be outside the trigger guard until you're on target.

 

[Rastoff]

I'm assuming that a bra holster carries the gun muzzle down.

I don't know what holster she had, but the ones I've seen are not muzzle down.