The Russians have gone in

[Absalom]

Let us remember that when it
comes to war crimes and the
Inernational Court, the US and
others have not signed to
officially support it.

That's because conceivably
Western leaders could also be
caught up in war crimes
charges.

Back in the 1990s when the International Criminal Court was established, the US and a few other countries had concerns about politically motivated war crimes prosecutions, especially of US service members. These concerns were not addressed in the final treaty, so the US, along with Russia and a few others, did not sign it.

Since then we seem to have basically followed the principle that we will cooperate with the court if it does its job, primarily investigating war crimes where the countries involved won't do so. In respect to ourselves, we can rightfully make the argument that the US does investigate and if warranted prosecutes US service members who commit war crimes. It's obvious in the case of Ukraine that the Russians don't admit wrongdoing by their soldiers, which is why we can assist the court without being hypocritical.

What Russia ultimately thinks about any results is less important than bringing the crimes to light. The wheels grind slowly. And some 10 or 20 years in the future a retired Russian officer may find himself arrested on a tourist trip to Paris or New York.

 

[LVSteve]

The war has now reached the 'push' stage, progress on either side is incremental as artillery and armor slug it out, and Putin cannot afford such a stalemate, he is emptying the war coffers and depleting his main armor and heavy artillery profile.

You guys crack me up talking about "war coffers" and how Russia is "financing its war". Think about it, the old Soviet Union didn't operate that way, and Putin's merry band are all from that era of thinking. The only things being emptied are bunkers of (likely decrepit) artillery shells and oil storage tanks. No doubt the oil refineries and the ordnance factories have been given their orders to maintain supplies, and I don't mean "orders" as in contracts and money.

 

[Rudi]

I'm wondering if China might be thinking about adding Russia to their portfolio once the Russians run out of military leaders and weapons? That would make for an interesting situation. I wonder how long it would take Russians to learn Chinese?

Tom Clancy wrote a book about this. The Dragon and the Bear. A good read.

 

[biku324]

You guys crack me up talking about "war coffers" and how Russia is "financing its war". Think about it, the old Soviet Union didn't operate that way, and Putin's merry band are all from that era of thinking. The only things being emptied are bunkers of (likely decrepit) artillery shells and oil storage tanks. No doubt the oil refineries and the ordnance factories have been given their orders to maintain supplies, and I don't mean "orders" as in contracts and money.

Your view of Russia doesn't match current reality. Russia has a market economy; they are as dependent on other countries for all kinds of things as are any of the modern countries of what was the G8 (until Crimea). That they are a corrupt kleptocracy only makes them more dependent on others.

Just one example...the largest gas/oil services providers in Russia are (were) Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, Weatherford International PLC, and Halliburton - only Halliburton was working gas fracking - all are out or pulling out as contracts end. Russia simply does not have the expertise to replace these American companies. Russians can't even service the stolen Boeings Putin kept from the lease agreements!

There are many, many other examples across the economic spectrum. Self-sustaining Russia disappeared in 1991.

 

[LCC]

You guys crack me up talking about "war coffers" and how Russia is "financing its war". Think about it, the old Soviet Union didn't operate that way, .

That viewpoint is so old it needs a walker, the USSR no longer exists.
The Russia of today is a mafia style plutocracy where the assets and resources of the country are divided up among the elite, including the right to 'sell' business opportunities to global companies, which lift the Russian economy through their direct employment of Russians, which has helped create a large middle class that never existed before.
Since the invasion began, however, almost 1,000 non Russian companies have now stopped operations in Russia, including some of the worlds largest such as McDonalds, which alone employed 62,000 Russians. And since the lay-offs began, over 200,000 skilled techs have fled Russia taking their critical skills with them.
Cash wise, Russia had 584 billion in US currency parked around the world, representing it's largest pool of cash reserves, and currently 300 billion of that has been frozen in the countries it was banked.
2022, not 1962...

 

[LVSteve]

That viewpoint is so old it needs a walker, the USSR no longer exists.
The Russia of today is a mafia style plutocracy where the assets and resources of the country are divided up among the elite, including the right to 'sell' business opportunities to global companies, which lift the Russian economy through their direct employment of Russians, which has helped create a large middle class that never existed before.
Since the invasion began, however, almost 1,000 non Russian companies have now stopped operations in Russia, including some of the worlds largest such as McDonalds, which alone employed 62,000 Russians. And since the lay-offs began, over 200,000 skilled techs have fled Russia taking their critical skills with them.
Cash wise, Russia had 584 billion in US currency parked around the world, representing it's largest pool of cash reserves, and currently 300 billion of that has been frozen in the countries it was banked.
2022, not 1962...

While all that it true, and in the medium to long term the Russian economy will suffer greatly, I doubt this will influence Putin one little bit. The man is in major denial.

 

[Rudi]

Puti's mental state is not good. No concern for the future of his country. So sad on so many levels. A snake in his hole.

 

[John Patrick]

Nope. They were fascists, the extreme right, like Mussolini's fascists and Generalissimo Franco's Falangists.

Fascism is a far-right political philosophy, or theory of government, that emerged in the early twentieth century. Fascism prioritizes the nation over the individual, who exists to serve the nation. While fascist movements could be found in almost every country following World War I, fascism was most successful in Italy and Germany. Fascism | Holocaust Encyclopedia

Added:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. - Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

He was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps, despite his ardent nationalism.

Describe the difference between Nazi Germany, China today, Russia-USSR-Russia… Add in Cuba, Zimbabwe and your selection of other leftist countries.

The Nazis weren't against leftists or communists, they were against any internal threat to the state by whatever name, just like China, Russia-USSR-Russia, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc, etc. They all had purges aimed at other leftists and communists perceived to be a threat to the state.

 

[John Patrick]

I'll try to stay in the historical context and this should not become a political discussion, just a clarification of definitions:

While the Nazis were certainly not conservative in the traditional sense, they were definitely right-wing. Hitler's use of the term "socialist" within "National Socialist" was basically a ploy to appeal to the German working class; in the same vein, the German word for comrade, "Genosse", was adapted by the Nazis into "Parteigenosse", party comrade, which is how they referred to each other, and "Volksgenosse", people's comrade, which was every other German.

What makes National Socialist ideology and politics right-wing is that it was basically "socialism for the nation", not the individual or the working class or whomever. In fact, while (somewhat simplified) left-wing socialism promises the individual lots of goodies, national socialism means the opposite: everybody has to give and serve to make Germany great again. Mothers have to mass-produce babies to "give to the Führer" (literally; the propaganda phrased it like that), everybody serves in the party or labor service or army, all for the nation, nothing for the individual. Nothing left-wing about it.

The Russian claims about the Ukrainian government are politically and historically rubbish. In common Russian parlance, Nazi and Fascist have just become generic words for "people we need a reason to kill". That there are fighters with right-wing ideologies in units like the Azov battalion blurs the lines a little, but they are just a small part of the Ukrainian forces, and certainly don't determine the character of what the Ukrainian people are fighting for.

Your description of Nazi German fits Russia-USSR-Russia to a Tee. And China, and Cuba…

 

[Greyman50]

FWIW, just read that Russia " is concerned" how the world will react to their " treatment" of the steel plant Ukrainian Soldiers…
Putin just does not care about his country or how his name goes down in history. Sick, deranged or whatever, he is very dangerous.

 

[UncleEd]

Your description of Nazi German fits Russia-USSR-Russia to a Tee. And China, and Cuba…

"Wha, what we have herrrre,
is to know your left from your
right."

 

[Absalom]

For a bit of comic relief, here is a reminder that PUNCTUATION MATTERS!!!

These two screen shots were just lifted off CNN:

1. From the menu of headlines:

2. From the actual article:

In case you're not sure, the article matches the second version

 

[biku324]

Particularly when the pen is on the paper.

 

[biku324]

The Nazis weren't against leftists or communists, they were against any internal threat to the state by whatever name, just like China, Russia-USSR-Russia, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc, etc. They all had purges aimed at other leftists and communists perceived to be a threat to the state.

I hestitate to be unkind, but your analysis is utterly devoid of fact. The Nazis, and especially Hitler, were fanatically opposed to 'reds,' both Communist and socialist. You can read it in Hitler's (translated) words in Mein Kampf or in translations of his speeches; you could simply read a bit of history about the bloody street battles between Nazis and Communists, Marxists, and socialists in the '20s and '30s. Or you could simply read any of the thousands of accounts of why Hitler did not only see Bolshevism and the Soviet Union as his arch-enemy but that he also saw the war against the Soviet Union as a 'Crusade' against Bolshevism.

Any introductory political science course will touch on this as well.

For consideration:

Ideology of the Bolsheviks

The main ideas of the Bolshevik ideology, on which the Soviet Union was founded, were the following:

- The basis of that ideology was the communist proposals of Karl Marx. However, the original Marxism was intended for industrialized countries, such as England or Germany, while Russia did not meet those conditions. This adaptation to reality explains some of the differences between the ideas proposed by Marx and those later formulated by the Bolshevik leader, Lenin.

- They sought to abolish the autocracy existing in Russia and the practically feudal system still present in the country. In this way, the upper landed class would disappear and their lands would be distributed among the peasants.

- His plan to govern the country was to establish the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat as a prior step for the working class to take power. Bolsheviks: origin, ideology and leaders - science - 2022[/url

The Azov Battalion that sparked a century-old reflection on nazism discussion is a right-wing, non-mainstream element in Ukraine.

Azov began as a military infantry unit made up of civilian volunteers drawn from far-right, neo-Nazi groups that were active in Ukraine, such as the Patriot of Ukraine gang and the Social National Assembly (SNA).

Read more at:
[url]https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/neo-nazis-azov-battalion-is-ukraines-controversial-custodian/articleshow/90692826.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[Beemerguy53]

Some weeks ago, an old friend (who ought to know better) tried to convince me that Hitler and his Nazis were actually leftists ideologically, and I've seen this allegation on other social media sites or pages as well. Apparently, some internet or news source that some people choose to believe is spreading this propaganda for some reason.

In this thread, it's immaterial. We are talking about Putin and his invasion of Ukraine. The only comment I will make about Hitler's ideology is to share the below quote from Pastor Martin Niemöller, who was imprisoned by the Third Reich and certainly knew what he was talking about...

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

Martin Niem"oller: "First they came for the Socialists..." | Holocaust Encyclopedia

 

[Beemerguy53]

Interesting interview on CNN yesterday with retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling...

'I'm smiling': Ret. Lt. Gen. Hertling reacts to Putin news - CNN Video

 

[Beemerguy53]

I continue to be in awe of the news coverage coming from Ukraine. Reporters every day, from every major network, are bringing us stories that really convey what is going on there.

NBC's Richard Engel did this interview with an 88 year old woman who has survived the war so far...it's one of the most moving things I've seen on television in a very long time.

88-Year-Old Ukrainian Woman Shares Life Update After Surviving Russian Bombing

 

[oldbrownhat]

I continue to be in awe of the news coverage coming from Ukraine. Reporters every day, from every major network, are bringing us stories that really convey what is going on there....

Also the video following the one with Gen. Hertling, with the man whose wife and 3 month-old baby were killed when a missile hit their apartment.

Stories like this were common in WWII and other conflicts, too, but we didn't have technology to do broadcast-quality on-the-spot video and upload it instantly.

 

[Rudi]

I think only 1 or 2 jurnos have been killed and a couple wounded. Considering the bombardments there, they have been pretty lucky.

 

[UncleEd]

Journalists have been at the
forefront of many wars
including the US Civil War.

But reporting today, though
often instant and electronic,
is not that much different
from other wars, EXCEPT.....

.....government restrictions are
much less nowadays.

News from the fronts in WWII was
often heavy handed in its control.
It was considered patriotic not to
tell how gruesome things were.

By the Vietnam war, restrictions
were much looser to non-existent.
And some blamed the press for
losing the war. But it would have
been lost with or without journalists.