The Shop Gun: project in progression

[usnrigger]

Well, the 1917 Hotrod is in the final phases, polishing and the tuning all the parts as they are fitted back in, still need to find a prewar hammer for it and the rust blue.

I have started in on what I'm calling "The Shop Gun" as this is a fun project for me to both carry and display in any future shop. I had a 44HE frame, could have been a 455 but reguardless a frame. It was heavily abused but still solid at the bones. I was able to acquire a 38/44 cylinder and a 4" 38/44 barrel. So I have the bulk of parts and decided to start in on it.

The cylinder will need to be completely fitted as the one I have is a NOS never fitted cylinder and matching ejector/extractor. I will be going over the fitting in a later post here in this thread.

The sideplate was always a question, as sometime in its life it had been removed and polished and yes ground on with something I'm guessing a wheel or dremel

I thought about what to do while waiting to source parts as the roll stamp logo was already pretty much wiped and would have looked off if left in it current state. I formulated two options: 1 have somebody restamp the rollmark. I can have this done but it would be of the modern style and not the 1920's as the frame is from. 2 since this is already a mismatched parts revolver I could take the time and remove current roll mark and have some engraving done, maybe gold inlay with something that I would like. Well I'm not sure on what of the two options will happen on this project, but I needed to remove the original roll mark and refit the buffed, polished and poor fitting side plate. So here we go on a nice sunny day in colorado.

I started by giving it a quick draw file and 120 polish so I can see what issues are waiting under the blue. A lot of grind marks, okay I expected that but jeez looked like this thing could have its own topo map.

So I put my flat working screws in to snug up sideplate to frame so I knew every thing was pulled down. Using a set of peening punches I made I started the long noise of "tink tink tink" one I had slowly moved enough metal around I then stated polish the sideplate flat and removing of the original logo.








So here we are with the fit up. And in a working polish. I will add to this next time with fitting the new cylinder and timing up the barrel. Enjoy

 

[usnrigger]

Tools and Tips: Side Plate Fitting

Okay a quick overview/crash course in how I did this process.

Tools:
- Peening Punches (various sizes) See photo of one example
- 4oz/6oz Ball Peen Hammer
- Good Light
- Smooth ******* File 6"
- Nicholson Handy File (I use single cut side)
- 3M Maroon 120,240,320 Polishing Paper
- Gesswein Mold Makers Stone Set
- N Frame Polishing Holder (English Walnut)

So, basically when fitting this up im looking to displace a small amount of metal outward. To do this we also need to push metal down and as a result out. thus the punch should have a large surface area. This does a couple things it moves metal over a greater area and it doesn't cause me to push metal overly deep. we don't want to stipple the thing.

I always work alittle bit away from the gap and work toward slowly pushing and displacing metal to the area needed. Also if you have a taller/higher side I always work the lower part first. Why, because it you work the higher side first you will basically just roll some metal over the lower side and the first time you remove the side plate it will just pull it back and make removing the side plate a chore. So work the low side then high and if its to high I may knock it down a bit with the smooth file then peen it into place.

Work slow and use a good light, its always good to get use to looking at the area your working and not the back of the peening punch. It will become a second nature that you know how to work the hammer and punch with out looking the hammer actually hitting the punch. Don't strike it to hard you can always go back line up in same peen mark and displace it more.

Remember that we want more displacement outward and for every .0001" you peen down you will have to remove the little divot marks. We need to get metal from somewhere so its a give and take. Working along the seam until you get to where you think you have it all sewn up. then I will take the Handi File Single cut side and draw file till I have just about all the little divot marks out, I then switch to the smooth ******* file and finally mold makers stones in 120/180grits. then to paper from 120-320 I use the files as I can make sure im removing metal flat and not rolling off the edge. the stones give me this same type of ability but I can scoot in out of tight spots and form the stone if I have a odd contour or cubby. make sure to use oil with the stones. and clear your files often to prevent pinning.

Like I said through out the process I have 3 flat screws installed to draw the plate down and I can polish over them. When I buffing on wheels I put domed head in all 3 holes

Corners are always tough when as you have now 3 dimensions to the seam. all I can say is go slow and work it the best as possible. the corners on this sideplate still have light seam lines as the previous buffing and grinding just didn't give me enough to work with.

The peening punches are make from hardware store nail setters or cold chisels. Grind them slowly do they don't loss hardness. I normally dunk in water as I work on the grinder if I get a sizzle Im getting it to hot. after the grinder profile is set I hit it on a belt grinder, then some 240 polish paper and a quick turn on a buffing wheel.

NOTE: Don't peen right down the middle of the seam this is just going to set you back you want to work left and right of it up to seam. Also I probably have 8 different peening pinches of various sizes and point shapes. And if need be I'll re grind it to suit what I'm working on

Practice, if you wanted to try your hand clamping two pieces of flat stock together that you put a slight bevel on to simulate your gap and see if you can get a seamless fit.

Hope this helps and I covered everything in the process. let me know if I missed something or you have any questions.




Next Post will cover Fitting up the Cylinder and Barrel to this old girl. Using a old friend to get some measurements on paper. The 38/44 is my grandfathers duty gun as a young Kansas peace officer. Im sure it has a few stories and seen a few things. Its still makes it to the range on a regular basis.

This photo of the frame im working on was taken before I fitted the side plate, might be able to zoom in and see some of the original fit

 

[F75gunslinger]

subbed for continued perusing of project....

 

[Pig Hunter]

Well done!

 

[JohnHL]

Excellent tutorial!

John

 

[firebyprolong]

Where in Kansas was your grandfather on the police department? If you don't mind me asking. Be sure to keep us updated on the progress of the shop. You do great work and I'm sure lots of us would like to drop by when we're close.

 

[usnrigger]

Pratt not sure If it was city or county as Pratt is both. I probably need to just get it lettered.

I had a question of this could be done with a good roll Mark in place and keep the roll mark?

Yes, it would be more file and polishing control. I'd probably stick a piece of making tape over roll mark and work around it. The problem would come after all the seams are tightened up as you would have to polish and blend up to the roll mark and could give a slight domed look. It would not me 100% flat(standing water) across the side plate. I've had to do things like this in rusty refinishes, it's a mater of blending the polish across as large of area as possible, as the eye doesn't as easily catch things over large areas. Think curve of the earth on a horizon, it's there you just have trouble seeing it spread over a large mass. The other option I give somebody depending on the amount of work somebody is asking to have done is to remove roll mark and have it put back onto sideplate. If the revolver already needed a large amount of re-fitting polish, the cost of putting the roll mark back in would be about what I'd be charging for a hour of bench time, and produce possible a better end result.

Bottom line yes, it just comes down to control on my part

 

[usnrigger]

Lets talk about: Polishing

So, I will be fitting up the cylinder Saturday on a lathe, and had some time today while some stocks im working on dried .

I decided to not waste anytime and strip the blue on the barrel and get it worked up into "working polish".

Tools:
- Naval Jelly (I use Loctite brand)
- Q-Tips
- Water Mineral Sprits (I use water based)
- Mold Makers Stone Set
- 3M Maroon Polishing Paper (120-240grit)
- Belt Grinder
- Vise with leather Jaws (I use a cabinet makers vise for this)


The stripping of the old blue: I just put some paper towels down and with the Naval Jelly and Qtips I just slather a generous amount of the Pink Stuff(Jelly) on, and let it set. go work on something else for some where in the 15min range. It may take longer depending on the original blue. after the 15'ish minutes take a fresh Q-tip get alittle bit more jelly on the tip. now just lightly use Q-tips and scrub the areas and the blue should start to come off onto the Q-tip. If It doesn't then go another round with the apply, wait, scrub. after enough blue has come off I dunk in water and then wash in mineral spirits. Dry it off and your ready to start polish. If your not going to work on it right away apply some oil and wrap in a oiled shop towel.

- Oh yea you may find a lot more rust pits ext.. then you expected sometimes.

Here you go as to what I came out with.




Yes, a lot of underlying rust, but nothing that is really deep pretty tame in my book. I use naval jelly as it takes longer and doesn't etch the metal like some of the others. I have time to apply and if working with multiple parts I don't feel rushed and then have parts get the frosty etched. etching is not a problem in some cases but when im working with something that may not need a lot of polishing it creates a lot more work when it does happen.

onto polishing. I probably am not one of the norms when it comes to the way I polish. Im not a polishing paper only type. I rely heavily on the mold makers stones that I described in past post. I was introduced to them by one of my instructors and its been less and less polishing paper ever since. The stones I use are these http://www.gesswein.com/c-326-gesswein-stones.aspx?pagenum=&sortfield=&sortdirection=&perpage= they come in bunch of sizes as well as polishing cutting composition. I will say for carbon steel I normally reach for the "orange" EDM. They give me a great finish, they cut very well in all grits and they shape as you use them. all the colors have their time and place, I don't know what all the letters stand for but just test them and see what I like and I have come to know what colors work best for material and job type. the white ones are very hard and don't break down or shape very fast but this can be a good thing in some cases. You can also jump over to your belt grinder any of them and grind them to whatever shape you want or need. Bottom line they work great and you can reach into places you can go with paper. I highly recommend messing with them if you like doing this type of stuff. Just remember to use oil with the stones so they don't clog and they cut better. another bonus with these is that you don't end up with a mound of used polishing paper, one of my orange edm stones I have used half of it over a good two years I have I ordered more EDM stones the different sizes as they are my go to stone in most cases. so I see it as a money saver as a 50yd roll of 2" can be up to $45 a stone is 3-6$

I will use paper after I have run a lot of things up to 240 or 320 with the stones and then go to 240grit paper. I did have a few places in this barrel I picked up a file for a big scratch or dings. A note on when I polish. I always work around and roll marks until I do my final polish, then I will set down and slowly address any polish that is needed within the roll mark areas. you will see on the barrel I have not polished over and a sort of box is around the marks. this is another great ability the stones give me. I still try and cross polish with anything I do but sometimes it gets tough with different thing in the way. So here is what I ended up with so far. this is stones only I have not touched this with paper yet. I will start to use some paper when I work on polishing the whole pistol tomorrow


This is worked up with a 200grit stone. I will go up to 240'ish and then start hitting with some paper




Done for the night, ready to move on to fitting up cylinder on Saturday. Barrel 90% done as far as polish, will finish last 10% right before it goes in blueing tanks

 

[Warren Sear]

Wow! Nicely done...

 

[usnrigger]

Cylinder & Barrel Fitting Prep:

So tomorrow I will be using a friends lathe to fit up the cylinder and barrel. I went ahead today and faced up the front of the action with yet again that stone set. nice and flat and ready to have a tube put on it. I also set the corner of the frame up by the barrel as with the barrel on it makes working these difficult so I wanted to make sure they are nicely set. Finally I made sure the yoke was straight as this could cause all sorts of issues and should be done before fitting the barrel

Here is a few photos showing the face of the frame and some before photos of the cylinder pre fitting. the one photo shows how far it will go in currently.






(Cont. Updated 20APR2015)
Okay, wanted to go further into detail about the cylinder fitting as I have some extra time this morning. I would call this part advanced not because of understanding the process by means of needing lathe.

Tools Used:
Lathe
Carbide Cutter (Large Radius)
Assorted Precision Measuring Tools
Dial Indicator w/Mag base

*Please note this applies to fitting a oversized, never before fit cylinder. fitting of cylinders can have different steps and progression of steps may change. I will put a small section in quickly going over different methods of fitting a cylinder to give you a idea of changes that can or will be needed in fitting.

Before jumping on a lathe and messing with the back(ratchet) side of the cylinder we need to make sure the front portion of the cylinder is fitted and set headspace. With the extractor removed I put the cylinder into the frame with yoke and yoke screw. While holding cylinder forward I measure using feeler gauge. When I did this I came up with .060", which is exactly what is published for 38spl headspace. Well in a revolver I like more headspace, alittle rattle is good in my books. At .060" I actually put 6 different producers of brass into and it would bind depending on what brass was coming up to breech face. To increase headspace I looked at two areas the gas ring(Area B) and the back side of yoke (Area A). by using black Sharpe I marked the back of yoke (A) and front of gas ring (B) to see what parts are making contact. Im my case the front of gas ring was contacting the shoulder of the yoke, and I did not have contact showing on back of yoke. So knowing I wanted to increase my headspace by .005" I used a depth micrometer to calculate front of gas ring to face of cylinder, I took multiple reading all around the cylinder. I averaged .1985" from 4 different areas of taking a reading. with that I filed and hand stoned the front of gas ring to remove .005" and I checked after I was done to make sure it was flat/square by taking the reading again from 4 different location around the cylinder face. I then applied black Sharpe again and checked for contact, I was hitting of back of yoke and i have a small about of space between the yoke shoulder and gas ring. Just enough to see daylight through. I then checked what my headspace was setting at with feelers .065" on the nose. I again checked with a assortment of brass to see if the when the cylinder was spun if it had any binding, it had none and spun very freely. So headspace is set and we have contact on the back of the yoke. We are ready to move on. If you don't have contact on the back of yoke no worries you can address this after you get further along in the fitting. Your main goal in this step is to set head space. You need to see what parts are contacting so you know where to remove material if we had excessive headspace we would have stretched the yoke to push the cylinder closer to the breech face. Now that i know that my headspace is .065" can can figure the rest of my numbers to move on.









First off I used a 3 jaw chuck and when the extractor was being held in the chuck I put a extractor rod from a 2" K frame to help protect and prevent the tube part of the extractor from crushing or deforming the threads(See Photo). As you can see i have my lathe "dance card" all listed out so i know what the heck i need to do (Figure 1). The frame recess was measured with feeler gauges and a strait edge place across the recess.

So

So we are trying to get .110" of total ratchet area height (area 1 + 2). Sorry used numbers to illustrate this i see it is slightly confusing. I also want area 2 to set higher than 1 by .005-.008". This protects the ratchets from wearing and reduces friction in the rotating assembly as a whole. Im currently setting at a height of .145" and thus i need to remove .035" To do this i will touch off in area 1 and do a zero pass. I had a dial indicator on a mag base mounted on my bed rails. Also remember that area 2 was already .013" high from the point i touched off at, so after i did my zero pass i had removed .013 from my total of .035". Leaving me with .022" I removed .018" checked fit and it was still a hair snug, but the cylinder did go in. I removed .003" and then relieved the ratchets by .005" - Perfect, just a hair of clearance. This is a good time to point out that going slow and checking fit often is a good practice to follow. I only removed .021" and my number to hit was .022"

So that's were we sit now, cylinder fit up and i have already started pulling parts to fit up. I ill be going over a lot of small parts fitting in the upcoming post. Cylinder Lock, Hand, Yoke, Yoke Screw, as well as the fit to have all these parts work together as one unit

If you have any question, or i missed anything. I try to go back and edit to make it clear but sometimes i don't explain very well.

 

[usnrigger]

Well, spun up a lathe today and fitted up the cylinder to the frame & yoke. Everything came together beautify we have good headspace of .065" and after I touched the shoulder of the barrel the gap for B/C came in at .010", no endshake. This is actually about what I like for barrel/cylinder gap for a working gun, if it was .008" id be perfect in my book. I normally only drop down into the <.006>.004" for target/Comp guns only.

Barrel is timed up after touching the shoulder about .006" it has alittle less crush then I like but after the pin is set its should be just fine. Im pretty particular as you can tell. Ill be starting to drop parts into it to start checking cylinder come up and timing. Since im still short a extractor rod and hammer. I will have to work around these as much as I can until I source these two parts. Ill be checking with range rods and some other checks and tuning.

This has actually come together very fast it seems. Once parts are found and all parts are fitting I will look at what final finish I will go for. I thought about having some gold borders and my initials gold inlayed vs having the S&W rollmark re-placed. Thought about pinto, but im still a bit away from needed to make final call on this.

I didn't get a lot of photos taken when working today as I was trying to get as much done in the time I had today. I did get this one and I will get a photo of the pistol as it sets now. I will try to go more into all the machining, what tools and methods I used in a post Sunday/Monday when I have a good amount of time to put toward it.

 

[usnrigger]

Went through the parts bin tonight and started putting together what I have for installation and fitting. I have NOS cylinder stops so I will have to fully fit that up. I also think I will have to do slot of fitting to the hand with this new cylinder, I'm going to start with a 1920 N frame hand and hope I can move it around to make it work. I will document both of the stop and hand fitting on here as part of the build. I have a trigger I just cased and need to put back together but should do the job nicely.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Great thread Skyler,I will be looking forward to the Cylinder Stop and Hand fitting process.Thanks for taking the time to share your talent with the rest of us.To anyone thinking of having Skyler Work on your Gun,Go for it.He is a good Guy that will do what it takes to make things right.

(you can PayPal me $20 later Skyler )

 

[usnrigger]

I'll take it off your first bill. I might just have a 2nd model 44 barrel that would make A good donor for a king rib. Or a couple bulged 1917 barrels that could be sleeved for a N frame 22lr conversion in "King" trim. Of course I'd build 2 of these as I want a 22 N frame as well. Just food for thought

 

[reddog81]

A very interesting post. Thanks for taking your time to document the process and posting the detailed pictures.

 

[71firebird400]

Just to add to what 05CarbonDRZ and reddog81 have said, I really enjoy threads like this. Thanks for documenting your progress.

 

[usnrigger]

Well, I started putting parts in to see where I stand and how much fitting going to have to do.

Everything dropped in pretty easy. I have nice carry up on all cylinders. A little binding in one chamber. I'll iron that out. Still looking for a hammer, extractor rod and center pin. I did have a hammer I did a cockeye treatment to. I may just run with this until I can find a stock one.

Here's what we have

 

[jinx]

I agree with some of the other posts here. This is a very interesting thread. I am learning a lot and enjoying your progress reports. Not to mention your obvious talent. Good luck to you.

 

[usnrigger]

Thank you for all the comments. I enjoy showing my work and providing knowledge to the group. This has been a nice project and so far is turning out super nice IMO. I'm pretty much at a stand still until I hunt down a couple parts, but will give me time to decide on the finish

 

[16thVACav]

This is a great education for me - thanks for posting these progress reports of your work!