One of my students has a Judge. He's an auxiliary police officer and I think he just bought it for fun although he's not real gun savvy. I had him bring it to class one night and we worked ECQ handling and retention with it. I was less than impressed with it in this role. I've only handled a Governor in the LGS.
The Smith and Wesson Governor: Misfit or Misunderstood?
- Thread starter Gulfecho
- Start date
One of my students has a Judge. He's an auxiliary police officer and I think he just bought it for fun although he's not real gun savvy. I had him bring it to class one night and we worked ECQ handling and retention with it. I was less than impressed with it in this role. I've only handled a Governor in the LGS.
I posted a link to an NRA test in post #66. That's the
NRA
Your sanctimony is ludicrous.
Do you even listen what you saying? What thread of credibility do you have with all your criticism about the Governor when you never even shot or carried one?
I value people who can offer opinions from real world experience, not internet arm chair quarterbacks.
In the post you just quoted, I only spoke in the context of an area in which I feel I'm fairly qualified to make a judgment in and have deferred to multiple well known instructors otherwise.
I've taught defensive tactics, weapon retention and ECQ force-on-force to LEO's for nearly 30 years. I've worked with individual officers as well as helping PD's revamp their DT programs training their instructors. I've taught reality-based martial arts for even longer. I worked plainclothes security alongside uniformed officers in a store located in a rather nasty part of the city and received formal commendations from the local PD on more than one occasion including one incident where I rescued an officer who had been overwhelmed and was being assaulted. I'm a published author having contributed several articles to various self-defense publications over the years.
I was invited to compete in the UFC by Art Davie and was offered recruitment deals by team USA coaches in three different Olympic combat sports. Maybe you don't think these skills are relevant, but I think they are vital in civilian armed self-defense which usually unfold suddenly and at very close distances. In these reactive scenario, unarmed skills, ECQ handling and a firearms inherent weapon retention qualities are often extremely important IMO. I'm not a defensive shooting instructor per se, but I've received a fair amount of training from some of the best trainers in the world sometimes simply in exchange for helping them with their unarmed and ECQ skills. I used to own a ranch with my own private range and my LEO students were frequent guests.
I don't conduct ballistics tests myself and feel no need to do so. If a gun shows no promise in such tests and fails my evaluation in terms of carry and suitability in close-quarter scenarios, I see no need to pursue it any farther. I've never shot a Governor, but I see no purpose in doing so. I have never shot or carried a Taurus curve either, but I'm confidant in my opinion that there are much better choices. There are a lot of martial arts I've never formerly trained in, but am fairly certain they are largely ineffective and have little to offer for defensive purposes. The Judge and Governor have been thoroughly vetted in all capacities by those more experienced than I and I'll defer and trust their data and opinions. I think I'm intelligent enough to hear and read their reviews and analyze the given reasons behind them in combination with my own experience well enough to formulate an informed opinion of my own.
If that makes me an armchair quarterback in your eyes, so be it.
OP
Gulfecho
Member
No you are not getting off the hook so easily. You have been peppering this thread with all sorts of opinions and supposition. Yet you have never owned one, sounds like you've never fired one so I am sorry, your opinion resides in the roots of embellishment. That is a kin to commenting on literature without reading the book. You are the quintessential "arm chair quarter back" and are a self proclaimed incompetent regarding your "debate".
muddocktor
Member
First of all, let me get this out the way. I don't have a Judge or Governor and don't plan to ever own one. I personally think they are ugly as home made sin with the extra long cylinder. So I don't have a dog in this hunt.
Mister X, you keep going on about how all the "experts" say this is a bad weapon. If it is loaded with the appropriate ammo, I don't see it that way. If you have it loaded with some appropriate self defense ammo such as some gold dot 45 Auto or equivalent, this would make for a most effective weapon for home defense around and in the house. There have been multiple posts here stating that with either 45 Auto or 45 Colt, the accuracy of these weapons is very adequate. And while I wouldn't think of using a 410 loading for self defense personally as to me there are better choices, that doesn't change the fact that either a Judge or a Governor would make a decent home defense weapon with the appropriate ammo. I also wouldn't want to use 45 Colt ammo in the house because of possible over penetration issues.
What I see these pistols reason for being is for the average Joe who lives in a rural area that wants to combine a home defense weapon and something to carry around the property to charm snakes and such with. Most of the target audience of these pistols will most probably only have one handgun in the house given the choice and this alleviates them the need to have a gun for self protection and also a work gun while doing chores around the place. With a Judge or Governor, the average Joe can buy one handgun and do both with.
Mister X, you keep going on about how all the "experts" say this is a bad weapon. If it is loaded with the appropriate ammo, I don't see it that way. If you have it loaded with some appropriate self defense ammo such as some gold dot 45 Auto or equivalent, this would make for a most effective weapon for home defense around and in the house. There have been multiple posts here stating that with either 45 Auto or 45 Colt, the accuracy of these weapons is very adequate. And while I wouldn't think of using a 410 loading for self defense personally as to me there are better choices, that doesn't change the fact that either a Judge or a Governor would make a decent home defense weapon with the appropriate ammo. I also wouldn't want to use 45 Colt ammo in the house because of possible over penetration issues.
What I see these pistols reason for being is for the average Joe who lives in a rural area that wants to combine a home defense weapon and something to carry around the property to charm snakes and such with. Most of the target audience of these pistols will most probably only have one handgun in the house given the choice and this alleviates them the need to have a gun for self protection and also a work gun while doing chores around the place. With a Judge or Governor, the average Joe can buy one handgun and do both with.
Governor
Probably all of you know more about guns than I ever will. I joined this forum a couple of years ago because I needed a gun for my wife when I wasn't home. A relative suggested a 12 gauge, but my wife is petite and I think shooting a 12 gauge would scare the heck out of her. Plus we have small kids, so storage was an issue. I ended up getting a Governor. My thinking was this, and please tell me where i'm wrong: the shot shell would allow her to just point in the general direction of the threat and at least scare the hell out of someone if not hit them, and it wouldn't risk going through the wall and hitting one of our kids. That's why I bought a Governor.
Probably all of you know more about guns than I ever will. I joined this forum a couple of years ago because I needed a gun for my wife when I wasn't home. A relative suggested a 12 gauge, but my wife is petite and I think shooting a 12 gauge would scare the heck out of her. Plus we have small kids, so storage was an issue. I ended up getting a Governor. My thinking was this, and please tell me where i'm wrong: the shot shell would allow her to just point in the general direction of the threat and at least scare the hell out of someone if not hit them, and it wouldn't risk going through the wall and hitting one of our kids. That's why I bought a Governor.
Your thinking is good. In over 99% of confrontations where a gun is presented, the confrontation ends. Without shots fired. The Governor's size lends itself to being seen. If your assailant doesn't see the gun, he won't run from it.
In the extremely rare cases where a shot must be fired, the blast of the .410 might be sufficient to scare them off.
In the extremely, extremely rare case where you must shoot, and must shoot until the assailant is physically stopped, the .410 sux. Many of us recommend guns/calibers that will stop an assailant. Your situation seems to preclude that. If circumstances change, get some .45 Colt ammo for it.
Advise your wife that if she has to shoot the gun, she must be prepared to shoot it again and again. I.e., tell her not to expect the assailant to stop just because she shot him. It is critical she understands that. And it applies to all guns under 20mm.
This has all already been covered, but I guess you don't want thread through the entire thread, so...
With kids in the house, where do you keep the Governor? Does your Wife never leave the house staying locked in some kind impenetrable panic room when you are gone? I imagine she at least steps out to get the mail, take out the trash, take the kids outside to play, walk the dog, goes to the store etc. In such instances, does she have the Governor on her at these times? What about having dinner or lounging around watching tv with the kids? There is an assumption that home defense scenarios only occur at overnight when everyone is in bed.
Concealed Carry Tactics to Neutralize a Home Invasion
There is also often an assumption that a home defense scenario involves a certain amount of time and distance involved, but they actually often occur at contact distances. A gun like the Governor offers relatively poor weapon inherent retention capabilities. A lightweight j-frame snub by contrast can easily be worn at all times and is the most difficult gun to disarm from its rightful owner. Woman(most people actually) are extremely hesitant to shoot someone and violent felons are aware of this, so a disarm attempt is highly likely...
The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns
I take more issue with the practicality and functionality of the gun itself, but some are focused solely on the ballistics and the idea "you don't have to aim". Well...
Hating on the Taurus Judge | Active Response Training
I still think a .410 revolver is silly. - www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com
The Taurus Judge Is Just Not Very Good | Vuurwapen Blog
With kids in the house, where do you keep the Governor? Does your Wife never leave the house staying locked in some kind impenetrable panic room when you are gone? I imagine she at least steps out to get the mail, take out the trash, take the kids outside to play, walk the dog, goes to the store etc. In such instances, does she have the Governor on her at these times? What about having dinner or lounging around watching tv with the kids? There is an assumption that home defense scenarios only occur at overnight when everyone is in bed.
Concealed Carry Tactics to Neutralize a Home Invasion
There is also often an assumption that a home defense scenario involves a certain amount of time and distance involved, but they actually often occur at contact distances. A gun like the Governor offers relatively poor weapon inherent retention capabilities. A lightweight j-frame snub by contrast can easily be worn at all times and is the most difficult gun to disarm from its rightful owner. Woman(most people actually) are extremely hesitant to shoot someone and violent felons are aware of this, so a disarm attempt is highly likely...
The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns
I take more issue with the practicality and functionality of the gun itself, but some are focused solely on the ballistics and the idea "you don't have to aim". Well...
Hating on the Taurus Judge | Active Response Training
I still think a .410 revolver is silly. - www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com
The Taurus Judge Is Just Not Very Good | Vuurwapen Blog
bmcgilvray
Member
More opinion offered in the spirit of forum debate.
A person could comment on a book with only a cursory look, thumbing it or by knowing a bit about the book's author. I wouldn't recommend reading "Mein Kampf" or "The Communist Manifesto" except as a historical exercise.
The .410 revolver is not special. It offers nothing that can't be better met with conventional arms. If one possesses the powers of observation he does not have to own and use one to reach the conclusion that the .410 revolver does not offer a uniquely effective advantage. He can determine that the revolver is ill-balanced and ungainly just by picking one up. He can own and use a .410 shotgun in order to know what the .410 is capable of and anything the .410 shotgun can do will not be accomplished as effectively with a .410 revolver.
Poisonous snakes may be dealt with by employing a shovel, or a stick, or a rock, or a conventional gun. I've used each of these for snakes on many occasions so the .410 revolver is not required for dispatching snakes. The .410 revolver does not possess any special anti-car-jacking properties. Car-jackers could be dealt with with any conventional .45 caliber (or smaller caliber) handgun, revolver or automatic, that gives up nothing to the .410 revolver all while maintaining superior handling characteristics to the .410 revolver.
Publius; In my opinion your thinking in approaching your wife's personal defense is wrong-headed. Neither the Governor nor even a short-barreled 12 gauge shotgun may be expected to connect with a target if "just pointed in the general direction." Both the gun's report and any hit could just as easily rile a potential assailant to immediately attack as scare him. Petite women who are determined can effectively use conventional .45 caliber pistols. I'm married to one.
I am of the view that it is a disservice to promote the .410 revolver as an especially effective choice for personal defense for it is not.
As a fun novelty item that digests several different cartridges the .410 revolver is ok, however the more stridently one argues for the .410 revolver as a serious and uniquely effective self-defense tool the more the arguments scream "noob."
A person could comment on a book with only a cursory look, thumbing it or by knowing a bit about the book's author. I wouldn't recommend reading "Mein Kampf" or "The Communist Manifesto" except as a historical exercise.
The .410 revolver is not special. It offers nothing that can't be better met with conventional arms. If one possesses the powers of observation he does not have to own and use one to reach the conclusion that the .410 revolver does not offer a uniquely effective advantage. He can determine that the revolver is ill-balanced and ungainly just by picking one up. He can own and use a .410 shotgun in order to know what the .410 is capable of and anything the .410 shotgun can do will not be accomplished as effectively with a .410 revolver.
Poisonous snakes may be dealt with by employing a shovel, or a stick, or a rock, or a conventional gun. I've used each of these for snakes on many occasions so the .410 revolver is not required for dispatching snakes. The .410 revolver does not possess any special anti-car-jacking properties. Car-jackers could be dealt with with any conventional .45 caliber (or smaller caliber) handgun, revolver or automatic, that gives up nothing to the .410 revolver all while maintaining superior handling characteristics to the .410 revolver.
Publius; In my opinion your thinking in approaching your wife's personal defense is wrong-headed. Neither the Governor nor even a short-barreled 12 gauge shotgun may be expected to connect with a target if "just pointed in the general direction." Both the gun's report and any hit could just as easily rile a potential assailant to immediately attack as scare him. Petite women who are determined can effectively use conventional .45 caliber pistols. I'm married to one.
I am of the view that it is a disservice to promote the .410 revolver as an especially effective choice for personal defense for it is not.
As a fun novelty item that digests several different cartridges the .410 revolver is ok, however the more stridently one argues for the .410 revolver as a serious and uniquely effective self-defense tool the more the arguments scream "noob."
Lee's Landing Billy
Member
I hope someday to meet you. We can discuss my sanctimony. An insult unanswered is the mother of another. Expect always to hear from me if you insult me. I thought you had some personal knowledge of the penetration, I see you don't. Keep reading instead of shooting, maybe you'll be fine when the flag flies of you could throw your book at them. We carry and and shoot everyday. You read and type, we will continue to type the real info we get in person from shooting every day. Looking forward to seeing you, come this way and we'll see how you shoot as compared to the safety of your keyboard. The Battery Oaks Range is open daily.
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It's more of an issue of it not being very good and there being countless better options, so why in the world would anyone choose an inferior weapon when life is on the line?
Why is experts in quotations marks? Are Massad Ayoob, Grant Cunningham, Dr. Gary Roberts, Greg Ellifritz and the late Todd Green not considered experts? You must have some lofty standards. Who then is an expert according to you? Experts can be wrong, but when they all are saying the same thing, I tend to think the consensus is most likely right although I ultimately think for myself. Not all opinions carry equal weight. I've looked, but cannot find any contrary opinions from reputable instructors. Can you provide some articles or at least quotes from some poeple worthy of the being labeled an expert who actually recommend the Governor/Judge and speak highly of it?
bmcgilvray
Member
Mister X;
Your posts are thoughtful and provide insight.
Your posts are thoughtful and provide insight.
Lee's Landing Billy
Member
He's a pretty good fella. He does have some credentials. He just likes to "debate". Tell him it's Tuesday and see what you get.
686-380
Member
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Well played, Gulfecho, well played...
This has been one of the more fruitful "Governor" threads I've seen. Wonder if/when it will play itself out...
I am captivated by this subject as it draws much controversy. I realize I am probably
However,
1) Do you feel it is a viable home defense weapon? Why?
2) What do you load it with? Specific rounds please.
3) Do you feel you would not rely upon it as a home defense weapon? Why?
Personally, I believe it is viable. I load mine with Federal 000 Buck in front of 3 Lehigh Maximum Expansion rounds.
Thank you for your opinions.
Sid
This has been one of the more fruitful "Governor" threads I've seen. Wonder if/when it will play itself out...
I think these spirited debates are often useful for hashing out a given topic and I do enjoy participating. I just like them to be kept civil and harbor no ill will toward anyone simply because they have a differing opinion. I hope that feeling is mutual.
And as to whether or not it's Tuesday... That would depend on where you live.
Munch. Munch. Munch. Followed by, gulp of Coke.
It is so much fun hearing about a gun from people who don't own one, but are so adamant in concluding people who do own one are stupid. Then hearing the people who actually do own one get incense like their sister's virginity is being disputed, and the fight begins.
I am sitting this argument out, but they could charge pay per view for this.
And here, dumb me, I always thought the best gun for defense was the one you had in your hand.
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