The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

[Lima_Delta54321]

Remember the old saying back when revolvers were king

"If you cant get er done with six" something something cant' remember,
Guess I need to carry my SW 460 in my shorts But it only holds 5

"If you can't get 'er done with six, then you can't get 'er done at all"

 

[Taj]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

In the city I used to work, we had several pawn shops. One of the owners used to carry a Colt's 1903 (.32acp) in his pocket while he worked. During one of the several robbery attempts he had when I was working, he got in a shootout with a bad guy in the store. The owner took 3 rounds of .45 acp ball but was able to return fire with his little Colt and actually kill the bad guy. The owner survived but after he was able to come back to work, I noticed he was carrying a Sig P220. He laughingly said that the little Colt seemed awfully small after looking down the barrel of that bad guys .45.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Many years ago I lost a good friend who was working behind a bar during a robbery.

His last words to the 2 robbers as he immediately opened the cash register and emptied it all onto the bar, were "here, take the boss's money".

You never know what violent armed dirtbags are going to do to you after you immediately comply with their demands.

 

[Dump1567]

There are times you may not have a choice and the handgun you carry could dictate the outcome. I was involved in an off duty shooting in 1988 with two armed bad guys. My family was with me which made it really bad. I have carried a full sized Gov't model all my life, on and off duty but had recently started carrying a Colts Officer's model off duty. WE were literally cornered and out of options. One bad guy threatened me and told me that after he killed me he was going to shoot my family. He started to pull a long gun out of his car (latter determined to be an SKS. I shot him first and another guy opened up on me with a Browning Hi-Power. I had moved away from my family (still in the car)and was standing literally on a manhole cover in the middle of the street. The guy with the pistol opened up on me (13 empty cases in the street) I ended up hitting him with the next to last round in the pistol. After it was all said and done I went back to carrying a full sized pistol again and a spare mag. At that time if I could have figured out how to carry a shotgun or rifle, I think I would have. Small handguns are great until you really need them.

I think anyone involved in a shooting will wish they had the biggest gun possible and more rounds than they need.

One of the YouTubers I watch was all about his 6 shot Ruger LCR in .327 Fed Mag. Up until he had a road range incident and started carry his M&P .40 with him in the car.

I love the idea of small guns, but always leave the house with a Glock 19 size handgun on my hip. Backed-up usually by a J frame. But I’m 6’4”, 210, so carrying a larger gun doesn’t bother me.

I was having back pain one day and carry my full-size steel frame 1911 was giving me issues. I switched to my Kimber Lightweight full size .45 for the rest of the day. Problem solved.

There are occasions where I will carry a 6 shot medium frame revolver since I’m a “gun guy” and like to carry different guns. But I’ll still back it up with another gun. And I won’t do it if I know I’m going into town, just usually local in the nicer area I live in.

But everyone has to make the right decision for themselves. Personally, I need to be more in condition “Yellow”. But it’s hard to do when your head is buried in the gun display case.

 

[Equipoise]

Violent criminals, doing what violent criminals do.

The customer in the store who tried to conceal himself was apparently shot at extremely close range. The news articles I saw didn't indicate whether the deceased customer was armed (it's AZ, right?), but it would seem not?

UPDATE: Suspects in pawn shop shooting found via GPS in Phoenix area

One is dead and another has life-threatening injuries following a shooting at a Northside pawn shop.

www.kgun9.com

2 innocents dead from GSW's at the hands of criminals.

The store manager heard the gunfire and went out to his car to retrieve a gun. Guess he didn't keep one in his office, or wear one.

In answer to the OP's question, yes, I'm confident in the functionality of the retirement weapons I carry. If I wasn't I wouldn't carry them. Size, caliber and capacity of them? Not critical factors to me for their role as retirement concealed weapons. Might be for some other folks, though. It is what it is. Neither capacity nor caliber are really suitable substitutions for mindset and skillset when chaos erupts, but that's just my personal opinion.

Then, of course, there's the ability to make good decisions and exercise good judgment when everything around you has gone to hell. It's not the gun that may save you. It's what you are able and willing to do with it that may save you.

Today my choice of a retirement/LEOSA weapon is a J-frame. Specifically, one of my M&P 340's. It's the first one I bought, back in '05 (from the first production run, I was told by the factory). It's been used as an armorer 'practice' gun after my armorer class, and a range beater as well as an off-duty and later retirement weapon. It's seen a few cases of ammunition fired through it for range work (drills, quals, etc). A couple hundred Magnum rounds, but primarily +P and some occasional standard pressure Ball loads (if available in the range inventory). I carry +P in it.

Remember the old saying back when revolvers were king

"If you cant get er done with six" something something cant' remember,
Guess I need to carry my SW 460 in my shorts But it only holds 5

“If I can’t finish the fight with 5 rounds, then I’m probably in more trouble than a handgun will get me out of.” I read that in a book written in the early twentieth century. Can’t recall the title.

 

[Boxlock]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

I carry what I can. Sometimes that’s a large capacity 45 acp, sometimes a 12 round 9mm Mak, sometimes a tiny NAAs mini revolver of only five rounds in 22 LR.
But I’m always armed.

 

[DonB1950]

I don’t carry for a gun battle. Just to get out of where I shouldn’t be. I call the guys that train and are equipped to do it. They have friends who will join them.

You have seconds to react, you will not have time to call anyone except GOD. The ones you would call are more than minutes away. Practice and train, then hope you will react right.

 

[Triggernosis]

See my posting in: re: Anyone Using a Glock with a Manual Safety? about a friend getting shot and his mother killed in a Phoenix gunfight just last week. Dwayne is proficient in firearms and I was really surprised he woke up and investigated w/o arming himself.

BTW: I'm VERY confidant with my EDC (Sig P-365) and nightstand guns (SA XDM 45 acp), as well as my wife's Glock G-43 and Sig P-365.

I'm confused - what does having a manual safety have to do with your friend getting shot?

 

[MTK20]

As I have said previously, an extended magazine is often a pacifier. You still have one barrel and can only shoot in one direction. You also do not have the ability to slow down time. Go ahead, carry a 100 round magazine. You're still taking return fire in a second. In fact, as defenders, we are behind the 8 ball. You're 'go' signal may be after they have shot at you already.

Mind set. Skill Set. Then tool set. It is listed in that order for a reason.

We do not agonise over details like cardiovascular health or cleaning up our diets, like we do the gun stuff (because guns are a fun topic).

I carry a sweet disposition, and then a S&W..... If I need it.

I don't mind the limited capacity of the wheel gun, because I have shot in competitions with it and for fun I have shot clay pigeons at over 100 yards with it. If you do all that you can to be a good example to your fellow man in society, and do all you can to be a good Partner/Parent at home, and then do what you can to mitigate your risks through your skills in training and your travel behaviours: no dumb times/locations, then that is all you can do. Seriously. Leave the rest to God and maintain your peace.

 

[srb10864]

As I have said previously, an extended magazine is often a pacifier. You still have one barrel and can only shoot in one direction. You also do not have the ability to slow down time. Go ahead, carry a 100 round magazine. You're still taking return fire in a second. In fact, as defenders, we are behind the 8 ball. You're 'go' signal may be after they have shot at you already.

Mind set. Skill Set. Then tool set. It is listed in that order for a reason.

We do not agonise over details like cardiovascular health or cleaning up our diets, like we do the gun stuff (because guns are a fun topic).

I carry a sweet disposition, and then a S&W..... If I need it.

I don't mind the limited capacity of the wheel gun, because I have shot in competitions with it and for fun I have shot clay pigeons at over 100 yards with it. If you do all that you can to be a good example to your fellow man in society, and do all you can to be a good Partner/Parent at home, and then do what you can to mitigate your risks through your skills in training and your travel behaviours: no dumb times/locations, then that is all you can do. Seriously. Leave the rest to God and maintain your peace.

You saying that “defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you” is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you’re that unaware of people around you?

 

[Rustyt1953]

"Folks, I believe love is the answer but you aught to own a handgun just in case."

~ Senator John Neely Kennedy

 

[biku324]

In most situations in which a human being needs to respond to a critical situation, there is a point of possible perception, the the point of actual perception, decision-making time, then physical reaction time for intial response. These are within the control of the respondent. Want a more effective response? Work to reduce your time spent on each point.

 

[Fastbolt]

“If I can’t finish the fight with 5 rounds, then I’m probably in more trouble than a handgun will get me out of.” I read that in a book written in the early twentieth century. Can’t recall the title.

Early 20th? Was it a Western? Back when revolvers might be carried with an empty charge hole under the hammer, especially single actions?

In the waning days of service revolvers, when I came on, it was a common policy that uniform cops carry 12 spare rounds (and plainclothes cops might only carry 6 spare rounds). Reloading was a bit loose, in the regard that a lot of uniform gun belts still had bullet loops, and the issued gear to new cops (like me) included a double dump pouch (leather), which held 6 loose rounds in each pouch. Using speedloaders was permitted, but they - and their carriers - had to be bought on your own dime.

 

[judgecrater]

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to extend the (for lack of a better term) argument.

Reasonable is an incredibly subjective word.

There are people on this forum who carry a J frame with six rounds and maybe a speed strip that think a Glock 19 and two reloads is unreasonably excessive.

I doubt very seriously that you pay a whole lot of attention to what I post but I frequently talk about how I don't top off my magazines when I load my pistol. I put 15 rounds in my glock magazine load the magazine into the gun chamber a round and go about my business.

I don't think the effort of dropping the magazine and putting another round in it and putting it back in the gun is worthwhile.

I've had people on this and other forums tell me that I'm going to be KILT in the streets for lack of that one bullet.

They think I'm unreasonable for not taking the extra 10 seconds.

There are people in my life who think the very fact that I carry a firearm at all is unreasonable and it makes me insane

So no, I can't say that "We all know what reasonable means".

There is no "excessive." There is no penalty for having an extra magazine in a gunfight.

 

[Warren Sear]

 

[Wheelgunner 642]

You saying that “defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you” is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you’re that unaware of people around you?

He said “may be” the go signal, I believe. So, perhaps there’s something worth reading in his argument.

 

[Revelation]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

Your most important word that you touched on is in your last paragraph, and it is "mindset." Mindset must be predetermined with a winning attitude and a most seriously deep self-consultation resulting in answering the question, "What am I willing to do to survive?" We must always walk in the "What if." Each and every day is different, and we are different. Depending upon on how good or bad we may be feeling on any particular day will contribute to the end result, but a predetermined proper "mindset" will run you through most any incidents or events, as if on auto-pilot. Proper mindset must include the physical and spiritual realm of life, and the importance of each as they pertain to each individual...... Yes, we are all different!

 

[Dave Haynes]

Talking about this kind of stuff is just so much hot air. It's what happens when something does happen that counts. Back in the 70's there was a local CHP officer who was a famous gunman by reputation, he was the firearms instructor and trainer for the local office. A real stud.. When something bad really happened to him, he ducked behind his patrol car stuck his hand up and put 6 .357s into the hood of the Dodge. His lucky day was when the puke took off. I would imagine that the stud had a hard time explaining his car's condition. Back in those days problems were solved with saps, lead gloves and clubs.

 

[MTK20]

You saying that “defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you” is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you’re that unaware of people around you?

By definition, if you are Defending yourself, then you are responding to an attack. Your response may be delayed by a fraction of a second, or much longer. Either way, it is a fact that you are behind the 8 ball, you are responding to something already happening.

Yes, being unaware may be dangerous, but so is thinking that you will never be caught off guard. Do you not think human predators are good at their craft? Lions hide in grass to conceal their hunt from the herd. Ted Bundy used crutches as concealment to prey on people's sympathetic human nature before attacking.

Nothing I said was false in my last post.

 

[MTK20]

Talking about this kind of stuff is just so much hot air. It's what happens when something does happen that counts. Back in the 70's there was a local CHP officer who was a famous gunman by reputation, he was the firearms instructor and trainer for the local office. A real stud.. When something bad really happened to him, he ducked behind his patrol car stuck his hand up and put 6 .357s into the hood of the Dodge. His lucky day was when the puke took off. I would imagine that the stud had a hard time explaining his car's condition. Back in those days problems were solved with saps, lead gloves and clubs.

That is unfortunate.

I think now is the time I would like to say thank you to all of our LEO's. If you are a bank clerk and you have an 'off day' at work, you might have to apologise and recount the stack of bills that a client gave you. As a cop? A bad day could get you and those around you hurt or worse.