The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

[Lima_Delta54321]

Remember the old saying back when revolvers were king

"If you cant get er done with six" something something cant' remember,
Guess I need to carry my SW 460 in my shorts But it only holds 5

"If you can't get 'er done with six, then you can't get 'er done at all"

 

[Taj]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

In the city I used to work, we had several pawn shops. One of the owners used to carry a Colt's 1903 (.32acp) in his pocket while he worked. During one of the several robbery attempts he had when I was working, he got in a shootout with a bad guy in the store. The owner took 3 rounds of .45 acp ball but was able to return fire with his little Colt and actually kill the bad guy. The owner survived but after he was able to come back to work, I noticed he was carrying a Sig P220. He laughingly said that the little Colt seemed awfully small after looking down the barrel of that bad guys .45.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Many years ago I lost a good friend who was working behind a bar during a robbery.

His last words to the 2 robbers as he immediately opened the cash register and emptied it all onto the bar, were "here, take the boss's money".

You never know what violent armed dirtbags are going to do to you after you immediately comply with their demands.

 

[Dump1567]

There are times you may not have a choice and the handgun you carry could dictate the outcome. I was involved in an off duty shooting in 1988 with two armed bad guys. My family was with me which made it really bad. I have carried a full sized Gov't model all my life, on and off duty but had recently started carrying a Colts Officer's model off duty. WE were literally cornered and out of options. One bad guy threatened me and told me that after he killed me he was going to shoot my family. He started to pull a long gun out of his car (latter determined to be an SKS. I shot him first and another guy opened up on me with a Browning Hi-Power. I had moved away from my family (still in the car)and was standing literally on a manhole cover in the middle of the street. The guy with the pistol opened up on me (13 empty cases in the street) I ended up hitting him with the next to last round in the pistol. After it was all said and done I went back to carrying a full sized pistol again and a spare mag. At that time if I could have figured out how to carry a shotgun or rifle, I think I would have. Small handguns are great until you really need them.

I think anyone involved in a shooting will wish they had the biggest gun possible and more rounds than they need.

One of the YouTubers I watch was all about his 6 shot Ruger LCR in .327 Fed Mag. Up until he had a road range incident and started carry his M&P .40 with him in the car.

I love the idea of small guns, but always leave the house with a Glock 19 size handgun on my hip. Backed-up usually by a J frame. But I'm 6'4", 210, so carrying a larger gun doesn't bother me.

I was having back pain one day and carry my full-size steel frame 1911 was giving me issues. I switched to my Kimber Lightweight full size .45 for the rest of the day. Problem solved.

There are occasions where I will carry a 6 shot medium frame revolver since I'm a "gun guy" and like to carry different guns. But I'll still back it up with another gun. And I won't do it if I know I'm going into town, just usually local in the nicer area I live in.

But everyone has to make the right decision for themselves. Personally, I need to be more in condition "Yellow". But it's hard to do when your head is buried in the gun display case.

 

[Equipoise]

Violent criminals, doing what violent criminals do.

The customer in the store who tried to conceal himself was apparently shot at extremely close range. The news articles I saw didn't indicate whether the deceased customer was armed (it's AZ, right?), but it would seem not?

UPDATE: Suspects in pawn shop shooting found via GPS in Phoenix area

One is dead and another has life-threatening injuries following a shooting at a Northside pawn shop.

www.kgun9.com

2 innocents dead from GSW's at the hands of criminals.

The store manager heard the gunfire and went out to his car to retrieve a gun. Guess he didn't keep one in his office, or wear one.

In answer to the OP's question, yes, I'm confident in the functionality of the retirement weapons I carry. If I wasn't I wouldn't carry them. Size, caliber and capacity of them? Not critical factors to me for their role as retirement concealed weapons. Might be for some other folks, though. It is what it is. Neither capacity nor caliber are really suitable substitutions for mindset and skillset when chaos erupts, but that's just my personal opinion.

Then, of course, there's the ability to make good decisions and exercise good judgment when everything around you has gone to hell. It's not the gun that may save you. It's what you are able and willing to do with it that may save you.

Today my choice of a retirement/LEOSA weapon is a J-frame. Specifically, one of my M&P 340's. It's the first one I bought, back in '05 (from the first production run, I was told by the factory). It's been used as an armorer 'practice' gun after my armorer class, and a range beater as well as an off-duty and later retirement weapon. It's seen a few cases of ammunition fired through it for range work (drills, quals, etc). A couple hundred Magnum rounds, but primarily +P and some occasional standard pressure Ball loads (if available in the range inventory). I carry +P in it.

Remember the old saying back when revolvers were king

"If you cant get er done with six" something something cant' remember,
Guess I need to carry my SW 460 in my shorts But it only holds 5

"If I can't finish the fight with 5 rounds, then I'm probably in more trouble than a handgun will get me out of." I read that in a book written in the early twentieth century. Can't recall the title.

 

[Boxlock]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

I carry what I can. Sometimes that's a large capacity 45 acp, sometimes a 12 round 9mm Mak, sometimes a tiny NAAs mini revolver of only five rounds in 22 LR.
But I'm always armed.

 

[DonB1950]

I don't carry for a gun battle. Just to get out of where I shouldn't be. I call the guys that train and are equipped to do it. They have friends who will join them.

You have seconds to react, you will not have time to call anyone except GOD. The ones you would call are more than minutes away. Practice and train, then hope you will react right.

 

[Triggernosis]

See my posting in: re: Anyone Using a Glock with a Manual Safety? about a friend getting shot and his mother killed in a Phoenix gunfight just last week. Dwayne is proficient in firearms and I was really surprised he woke up and investigated w/o arming himself.

BTW: I'm VERY confidant with my EDC (Sig P-365) and nightstand guns (SA XDM 45 acp), as well as my wife's Glock G-43 and Sig P-365.

I'm confused - what does having a manual safety have to do with your friend getting shot?

 

[MTK20]

As I have said previously, an extended magazine is often a pacifier. You still have one barrel and can only shoot in one direction. You also do not have the ability to slow down time. Go ahead, carry a 100 round magazine. You're still taking return fire in a second. In fact, as defenders, we are behind the 8 ball. You're 'go' signal may be after they have shot at you already.

Mind set. Skill Set. Then tool set. It is listed in that order for a reason.

We do not agonise over details like cardiovascular health or cleaning up our diets, like we do the gun stuff (because guns are a fun topic).

I carry a sweet disposition, and then a S&W..... If I need it.

I don't mind the limited capacity of the wheel gun, because I have shot in competitions with it and for fun I have shot clay pigeons at over 100 yards with it. If you do all that you can to be a good example to your fellow man in society, and do all you can to be a good Partner/Parent at home, and then do what you can to mitigate your risks through your skills in training and your travel behaviours: no dumb times/locations, then that is all you can do. Seriously. Leave the rest to God and maintain your peace.

 

[srb10864]

As I have said previously, an extended magazine is often a pacifier. You still have one barrel and can only shoot in one direction. You also do not have the ability to slow down time. Go ahead, carry a 100 round magazine. You're still taking return fire in a second. In fact, as defenders, we are behind the 8 ball. You're 'go' signal may be after they have shot at you already.

Mind set. Skill Set. Then tool set. It is listed in that order for a reason.

We do not agonise over details like cardiovascular health or cleaning up our diets, like we do the gun stuff (because guns are a fun topic).

I carry a sweet disposition, and then a S&W..... If I need it.

I don't mind the limited capacity of the wheel gun, because I have shot in competitions with it and for fun I have shot clay pigeons at over 100 yards with it. If you do all that you can to be a good example to your fellow man in society, and do all you can to be a good Partner/Parent at home, and then do what you can to mitigate your risks through your skills in training and your travel behaviours: no dumb times/locations, then that is all you can do. Seriously. Leave the rest to God and maintain your peace.

You saying that "defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you" is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you're that unaware of people around you?

 

[Rustyt1953]

"Folks, I believe love is the answer but you aught to own a handgun just in case."

~ Senator John Neely Kennedy

 

[biku324]

In most situations in which a human being needs to respond to a critical situation, there is a point of possible perception, the the point of actual perception, decision-making time, then physical reaction time for intial response. These are within the control of the respondent. Want a more effective response? Work to reduce your time spent on each point.

 

[Fastbolt]

"If I can't finish the fight with 5 rounds, then I'm probably in more trouble than a handgun will get me out of." I read that in a book written in the early twentieth century. Can't recall the title.

Early 20th? Was it a Western? Back when revolvers might be carried with an empty charge hole under the hammer, especially single actions?

In the waning days of service revolvers, when I came on, it was a common policy that uniform cops carry 12 spare rounds (and plainclothes cops might only carry 6 spare rounds). Reloading was a bit loose, in the regard that a lot of uniform gun belts still had bullet loops, and the issued gear to new cops (like me) included a double dump pouch (leather), which held 6 loose rounds in each pouch. Using speedloaders was permitted, but they - and their carriers - had to be bought on your own dime.

 

[judgecrater]

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to extend the (for lack of a better term) argument.

Reasonable is an incredibly subjective word.

There are people on this forum who carry a J frame with six rounds and maybe a speed strip that think a Glock 19 and two reloads is unreasonably excessive.

I doubt very seriously that you pay a whole lot of attention to what I post but I frequently talk about how I don't top off my magazines when I load my pistol. I put 15 rounds in my glock magazine load the magazine into the gun chamber a round and go about my business.

I don't think the effort of dropping the magazine and putting another round in it and putting it back in the gun is worthwhile.

I've had people on this and other forums tell me that I'm going to be KILT in the streets for lack of that one bullet.

They think I'm unreasonable for not taking the extra 10 seconds.

There are people in my life who think the very fact that I carry a firearm at all is unreasonable and it makes me insane

So no, I can't say that "We all know what reasonable means".

There is no "excessive." There is no penalty for having an extra magazine in a gunfight.

 

[Warren Sear]

 

[Wheelgunner 642]

You saying that "defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you" is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you're that unaware of people around you?

He said "may be" the go signal, I believe. So, perhaps there's something worth reading in his argument.

 

[Revelation]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

Your most important word that you touched on is in your last paragraph, and it is "mindset." Mindset must be predetermined with a winning attitude and a most seriously deep self-consultation resulting in answering the question, "What am I willing to do to survive?" We must always walk in the "What if." Each and every day is different, and we are different. Depending upon on how good or bad we may be feeling on any particular day will contribute to the end result, but a predetermined proper "mindset" will run you through most any incidents or events, as if on auto-pilot. Proper mindset must include the physical and spiritual realm of life, and the importance of each as they pertain to each individual...... Yes, we are all different!

 

[Dave Haynes]

Talking about this kind of stuff is just so much hot air. It's what happens when something does happen that counts. Back in the 70's there was a local CHP officer who was a famous gunman by reputation, he was the firearms instructor and trainer for the local office. A real stud.. When something bad really happened to him, he ducked behind his patrol car stuck his hand up and put 6 .357s into the hood of the Dodge. His lucky day was when the puke took off. I would imagine that the stud had a hard time explaining his car's condition. Back in those days problems were solved with saps, lead gloves and clubs.

 

[MTK20]

You saying that "defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you" is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you're that unaware of people around you?

By definition, if you are Defending yourself, then you are responding to an attack. Your response may be delayed by a fraction of a second, or much longer. Either way, it is a fact that you are behind the 8 ball, you are responding to something already happening.

Yes, being unaware may be dangerous, but so is thinking that you will never be caught off guard. Do you not think human predators are good at their craft? Lions hide in grass to conceal their hunt from the herd. Ted Bundy used crutches as concealment to prey on people's sympathetic human nature before attacking.

Nothing I said was false in my last post.

 

[MTK20]

Talking about this kind of stuff is just so much hot air. It's what happens when something does happen that counts. Back in the 70's there was a local CHP officer who was a famous gunman by reputation, he was the firearms instructor and trainer for the local office. A real stud.. When something bad really happened to him, he ducked behind his patrol car stuck his hand up and put 6 .357s into the hood of the Dodge. His lucky day was when the puke took off. I would imagine that the stud had a hard time explaining his car's condition. Back in those days problems were solved with saps, lead gloves and clubs.

That is unfortunate.

I think now is the time I would like to say thank you to all of our LEO's. If you are a bank clerk and you have an 'off day' at work, you might have to apologise and recount the stack of bills that a client gave you. As a cop? A bad day could get you and those around you hurt or worse.

 

[RebCop]

Yes if pocket carry I have a Kimber K6S .357 carried with magnums. If belt carry I have my .22 TCM that hits like a ton of bricks and has 17 rounds. But more important is situational awareness, I'm retired LE and have it in spades. I tend to forget most people don't as my son owned a game store and was the victim of a snatch and grab robber of an expensive system. I reviewed the video and noticed something. After my son put the system on the counter the suspect did not examine it. Instead he walked to the door and looked both ways and then walked back. He could only have been looking for the police and it would have been an automatic red flag for me. But my son and wife totally missed it.

 

[cowboy94916]

None of us know how we will react in a situation armed or not. I follow Jeff Coopers teachings and try to be aware of my surroundings and prepared to act. Will I, I have no idea, hope to never have to find out.
To that end I train weekly with revolvers of various calibers and sizes, all S&W. Why? Simple familiarity of operation and reloads. I also train weekly with pistols all configured with 1911 manual safety for simple reason again familiarity of operation. I used to own various styles of auto's and safeties and colt revolvers but when doing some drills related to knife attack, I decocked or failed to automatically release safety and fire. Fatal error. Net result sold anything that I had to think about the operation. Now when I draw a weapon it is always operated witout thought as to operation and function. Only thinking required is wether to shoot or not. Fun house drills are highly educational for that.
In doing so over last 40 plus years. I am always comfortable and confident in whatever I am carrying.
Parabellum!

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago …

But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

I am a retired cop and just from life experiences I know you sometimes can not pick the best situation. The gunfight happens and you want to survive it.

 

[Law-dog]

Having been in 4 law enforcement jobs, I have enjoyed being in dicey situations and investigating many others including those with deceased players. In my own experience there was no time to be situationally aware, things happen fast. Three times, I could have died, all were later at night, one guy tried to stab me in the neck with a boot knife, another had a 44 mag and reached for it under his jean jacket.

Things happen fast. In the pawn shop event, if you witness a perp shoot the clerk in the head, you are next, you are a witness and only a fool would let you live.

You cannot draw against the drop and expect to survive. Once he points the gun at you, he is going to shoot you, even if you shoot him also, that is reality, his brain is in motion and he will continue to try and shoot where his brained already made the plan.

The old shoot in the torso at that point is dumb, in that case you have one good shot, maybe 2 more before you go down. In reality, you need a brain shot, a head shot of any kind will do. The only proper response, if you cannot dive out a window or door, is a quick shot to his head to stop brain function. Even a miss is better than not shooting or a center torso shot. Why? Because a bullet zooming by an ear may just be enough to distract him enough for your second round to hit the head, or the third round.

If you do not train for head shots as part of your training, you should not expect to win any such battle. Getting murdered in a pawn shop or on the street is not anything we should want. But in cases like this, shooting the attacker in the brain is the appropriate response.

As ECD gun guys, we are not warriors like some of us were in the military, but a warrior response in a case like that is the only way not to die in that parking lot or pawn shop. Just reality. Practice those head shots, it is a necessary skill.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I don't carry for a gun battle. Just to get out of where I shouldn't be …

Sometimes you don't get the chance or choice.

Watch the Investigation Discovery Channel and you'll see that serious crime occur even in safe places like Mayberry and Petticoat Junction.

 

[Smoke]

We do not agonise over details like cardiovascular health or cleaning up our diets, like we do the gun stuff.

Speak for yourself bro. I had a heart attack almost exsctly a year ago. I pay A LOT of attention to my cardiovascular health.

 

[Smoke]

There was a guy who is no longer with us who used to post here frequently under the name 18DA1.

He claimed to have investigated over 200 homicides in his career and I don't have any reason whatsoever to doubt him. One of the most common things I heard him say (or read him saying) was "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets". He said it over and over and over again. He said every time this discussion came up.

As stated previously, He investigated over 200 homicides and again no reason to doubt him. I may not get this exactly right but I'm pretty sure he said only one that he investigated went over 10 Rounds fired by all parties involved. That one he said the victim was actually dead by the second shot and the guy that shot him stood over the corpse and emptied his magazine into it.

I've never been in a gun fight but I've witnessed four of them. Of the four none of them lasted longer than 30 seconds and I'm almost positive none of them went over 10 Rounds.

I predominantly carry a glock 19 and 2 reloads or Glock 26 and one reload depending on how I'm dressed. So 45 rounds or 27 rounds (12 round magazine in the 26 and a 15 round reload).

The only thing I'm "confident" of is that I'm going to run out of time before I run out of ammunition

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

None of us know how we will react in a situation armed or not.

Professional training significantly increases your odds of success.

Some of us know how we react based on past experiences and continuing training.

 

[bph9]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

The Statistics show (as was proven at this incident) that the majority of people who are killed in a robbery are those that tried to resist. I think too that once you spook the criminal they start shooting at everyone that gets in their way when they leave in a hurry.

The clerk not only succeeded in getting himself killed but also an innocent bystander as well simply because he chose money over life and decided to shoot it out. We still do not know if the bullet that killed the bystander actually came from the clerks gun or the criminals gun in a deliberate act or an accidental stray bullet from either gun that killed the bystander.

Although your chances are higher that you will be struck by lightning than be involved in a robbery by a criminal in a store the best route is not to engage in a gun battle but to take cover and only shoot it out if the criminal comes looking for you. Again highly unlikely considering the fact that the criminal wants the money and then wants to get away as soon as possible and not waste his time to go looking for other people to shoot.

Remember also that when the bullets start flying you can be sued if any innocent bystander is injured or killed in the crossfire which is highly likely in the confines of a crowded store as few stores are completely empty at any one time.

And even more strange but true is that if you succeed in wounding or killing the criminal, especially if he has only a knife his relatives can sue you for wrongful death or injury even though the criminal was clearly committing a crime at the time you shot him. You will probably win in the lawsuit but it will still cost you thousands for a lawyer and thousands more on the time off of work lost.

I might add that even Wyatt Earp and his Brothers were taken to court over the shoot out at the OK corral and that was during the days of the wild west when courts and juries were much more lenient towards Officers engaged in a shootout. If Wyatt and his brothers had not been law enforcement officers they just may have gone to prison over the shootout at the OK Corral. If the shootout had happened today in 2025 at the OK Corral the peace officers may have been sent to prison over an unjustified and/or illegal confrontation.

Some tips before going into a high crime area are always look at the cars in the parking lot. If you see a car parked backwards its a red signal that a criminal is planning a robbery and quick getaway by not having to back his car out of the parking lot.

If you see a lot of stickers plastered all over the store window blocking your view to the inside of the store be very cautious on entering the store because you will not be able to see a robbery that is now taking place and you just may walk smack dab into a robbery taking place.

And of course you must ask yourself the question "Is it really worth going into a store in the bad section of town" because the more you frequent such a store in a high crime area the higher the chances that someday you will walk in on a robbery in progress or be caught inside the store when a robbery goes down. Is looking for a "good deal" really worth getting your head blown off. We are not living in the country of even our Fathers let alone our Grandfathers, it's a different world out there today.

Again although its very unlikely you will ever be involved in such a shootout situation why take chances when you do not have to. I long ago quite going to a pawn shop in a town where once even my Grandfather and Father used to frequent and the pawn shop in question even stopped selling guns there. It's the current reality on how we are forced to live.

 

[srb10864]

By definition, if you are Defending yourself, then you are responding to an attack. Your response may be delayed by a fraction of a second, or much longer. Either way, it is a fact that you are behind the 8 ball, you are responding to something already happening.

Yes, being unaware may be dangerous, but so is thinking that you will never be caught off guard. Do you not think human predators are good at their craft? Lions hide in grass to conceal their hunt from the herd. Ted Bundy used crutches as concealment to prey on people's sympathetic human nature before attacking.

Nothing I said was false in my last post.

I worked a lot of murder cases and every violent crime you can think of, so after 20+ yrs of dealing with these violent pieces of sh"t on the street and in an interrogation rooms, I learned exactly what they are and how they think. They're 100% predators who are always looking for prey. My mindset since those days has always been that I'm the super predator looking for the predators around me. I still can easily pick out the criminals when I'm out and about in society. They just stand out to me. If you've never dealt with violent people, it's hard to wrap your brain around what I'm saying.