The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

[biku324]

Nearly hit testosterone poisoning levels in this thread.

 

[seabright60]

Jeez, Rambo, I ain’t saying go meekly into the dark night, I’m pointing out that E&E + shoot if they come at you is the best answer. My comment was mostly directed at the young man working at a drug-troubled KFC…nothing worth shooting someone over in that context except yourself.

Anyone can sneak up on anyone and commit violence ,there's no sure thing , if a cop armed with the best 10mm on his hip is in line at the deli at lunchtime any goblin with any deadly weapon can take him out. My pocket 357 j frame is my edc i have alot more stuff but I believe the 3/3/3 rule and the odds say im correct that being aware and ready able and willing is the most important thing for the average person.

 

[rockquarry]

He said “may be” the go signal, I believe. So, perhaps there’s something worth reading in his argument.

You saying that “defenders are behind the 8 ball and the go signal for people being after the criminal has already shot at you” is the perfect example of a gun carrier having their head up their ass, and is the definition of ZERO situational awareness. Why do you carry if you’re that unaware of people around you?

How about plain old practical, non-tactical, and more meaningful "observant" instead of the stiff-collared, classroom gunfighting theory term "situational awareness"?

 

[TaxPhd]

My mentality is different than most of you when I’m out and about. I think like a criminal because that’s what I dealt with during my career. I’m ALWAYS aware of my surroundings and will see the criminal before they see me. Therefore I don’t worry about being surprised. My ffl pickup spot is a local pawn shop, so I’m always watching the door anyway. I’ve also been in gunfights, so been there, done that. Shooting somebody that was trying to shoot at me was way easier than anybody led us to believe at the academy. Bottom line guys, if it’s them or you dead, you better be cold blooded and make sure it’s them.

I’m pretty aware of my surroundings when I’m out and about, but given the large variety of shapes/sizes/flavors that criminals come in, I’m not at all confident in my “universal criminal detection ability.” Sure, sketchy looking hood-rat/meth-head/gang-banger types would earn some closer scrutiny and concern, but there are plenty of criminals that look just like an ordinary dude walking down the street.

What’s your secret that results in you always seeing criminals before they see you?

 

[TaxPhd]

The Statistics show (as was proven at this incident) that the majority of people who are killed in a robbery are those that tried to resist. I think too that once you spook the criminal they start shooting at everyone that gets in their way when they leave in a hurry.

The clerk not only succeeded in getting himself killed but also an innocent bystander as well simply because he chose money over life and decided to shoot it out. We still do not know if the bullet that killed the bystander actually came from the clerks gun or the criminals gun in a deliberate act or an accidental stray bullet from either gun that killed the bystander.

Although your chances are higher that you will be struck by lightning than be involved in a robbery by a criminal in a store the best route is not to engage in a gun battle but to take cover and only shoot it out if the criminal comes looking for you. Again highly unlikely considering the fact that the criminal wants the money and then wants to get away as soon as possible and not waste his time to go looking for other people to shoot.

Remember also that when the bullets start flying you can be sued if any innocent bystander is injured or killed in the crossfire which is highly likely in the confines of a crowded store as few stores are completely empty at any one time.

And even more strange but true is that if you succeed in wounding or killing the criminal, especially if he has only a knife his relatives can sue you for wrongful death or injury even though the criminal was clearly committing a crime at the time you shot him. You will probably win in the lawsuit but it will still cost you thousands for a lawyer and thousands more on the time off of work lost.

I might add that even Wyatt Earp and his Brothers were taken to court over the shoot out at the OK corral and that was during the days of the wild west when courts and juries were much more lenient towards Officers engaged in a shootout. If Wyatt and his brothers had not been law enforcement officers they just may have gone to prison over the shootout at the OK Corral. If the shootout had happened today in 2025 at the OK Corral the peace officers may have been sent to prison over an unjustified and/or illegal confrontation.

Some tips before going into a high crime area are always look at the cars in the parking lot. If you see a car parked backwards its a red signal that a criminal is planning a robbery and quick getaway by not having to back his car out of the parking lot.

If you see a lot of stickers plastered all over the store window blocking your view to the inside of the store be very cautious on entering the store because you will not be able to see a robbery that is now taking place and you just may walk smack dab into a robbery taking place.

And of course you must ask yourself the question "Is it really worth going into a store in the bad section of town" because the more you frequent such a store in a high crime area the higher the chances that someday you will walk in on a robbery in progress or be caught inside the store when a robbery goes down. Is looking for a "good deal" really worth getting your head blown off. We are not living in the country of even our Fathers let alone our Grandfathers, it's a different world out there today.

Again although its very unlikely you will ever be involved in such a shootout situation why take chances when you do not have to. I long ago quite going to a pawn shop in a town where once even my Grandfather and Father used to frequent and the pawn shop in question even stopped selling guns there. It's the current reality on how we are forced to live.

I don’t know about your AO, but in mine, it’s pretty normal to see 30% or more cars that are backed into parking spots. It’s a pretty common way for people to park, and in the vast majority of situations, it’s certainly not a criminal planning a quick getaway from a robbery.

 

[biku324]

I don’t know about your AO, but in mine, it’s pretty normal to see 30% or more cars that are backed into parking spots. It’s a pretty common way for people to park, and in the vast majority of situations, it’s certainly not a criminal planning a quick getaway from a robbery.

Most folks at my church back in to park as it makes leaving after services less likely to cause a lot get-together, but hey, I'm Methodist, so it's hard to be sure.

Oddly enough, my first murder investigation 40+ years ago was 11 shots in the decedent; my last was 5 shots in the decedent. There were many variants in between simply because human behaviors are enormously variable.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

A robbery where you are a witness is not a gun fight. It is, you are a witness. And if they start the killing process, you are the key witness. There is no issue of protecting somebody's money, it is surviving that next 1 or 2 seconds. That's it.

One of two men convicted and sentenced to death for an infamous 1980 takeover robbery and massacre inside a Los Angeles Bob’s Big Boy restaurant, in which employees and customers were herded into a freezer and shot in the back, has begun legal efforts to have his prison sentence reduced, which could allow the once-condemned prisoner to be released on parole.

Choose wisely comes to mind.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

What’s your secret that results in you always seeing criminals before they see you?

For me 50+ years experience catching criminals.

But unusual activity should stand out. Two men on bicycles looking into cars with a flashlight at 5 am are not looking for a job.

Stranger knocking on the front door at 10 am is really just checking to see if anyone is home.

 

[GregVS]

I'm confused - what does having a manual safety have to do with your friend getting shot?

Being sleepy, etc. I use what I am most familiar with (1911 style safeties). Also, had a friend killed in high school when he came home late and his dad unloaded on him. The safety is just an added layer of safety. Also, less likelihood of an accidental discharge in times of stress. Just my opinion. But, it's my life and how I want to protect it.

 

[GregVS]

That is unfortunate.

I think now is the time I would like to say thank you to all of our LEO's. If you are a bank clerk and you have an 'off day' at work, you might have to apologise and recount the stack of bills that a client gave you. As a cop? A bad day could get you and those around you hurt or worse.

We had a liquor store near us that got robbed a couple of times a month: easy access and egress from the site. Two guys hit it one night and two L.A. Sheriffs responded. A total of 60 shots were fired and no one was hit except one perp was hit in the hand. They escaped over a 6 food cinder block fence and through a back yard to the next street where perp #3 had the get away car. Sheriffs got the wounded guy later at the hospital!

 

[goldenboy]

Josey Wales:
Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Professional training significantly increases your odds of success.

Some of us know how we react based on past experiences and continuing training.

Plenty of professionally trained people taking dirt naps . . .

 

[srb10864]

I’m pretty aware of my surroundings when I’m out and about, but given the large variety of shapes/sizes/flavors that criminals come in, I’m not at all confident in my “universal criminal detection ability.” Sure, sketchy looking hood-rat/meth-head/gang-banger types would earn some closer scrutiny and concern, but there are plenty of criminals that look just like an ordinary dude walking down the street.

What’s your secret that results in you always seeing criminals before they see you?

They target focus on the prey. Watch a cat before the pounce. It’s the same principle. Criminals look for weakness in the prey before the attack.

 

[Muss Muggins]

One of two men convicted and sentenced to death for an infamous 1980 takeover robbery and massacre inside a Los Angeles Bob’s Big Boy restaurant, in which employees and customers were herded into a freezer and shot in the back, has begun legal efforts to have his prison sentence reduced, which could allow the once-condemned prisoner to be released on parole.

Choose wisely comes to mind.

Choose wisely about what?

 

[tygar]

I don't really understand all this. I'm a Marine! Was taught to shoot M1s & 45s when I was in the single didgits by my father & uncles who were WW2 vets, including 2 at Normandy, 82AB, & landing at several major battles in the Pacific. "All" my contemporaries were taught to fight, shoot, protect the weak etc. So, we were always going towards trouble even as kids. As a Marine we were, of course, taught to go towards fire & had pretty good training to do it. As a Officer, same thing. To this day - every where I go - I'm looking for the bad guy & am ready to go to the trouble. As to carry; I taught small arms etc in the military & civilians. For civilians, you have them carry what they can shoot well & know how to fix/clear problems. For most women its a 38 revolver. KISS! Now I carry whatever is going to work for what I'm wearing or where I'm going. My go to guns are .45 autos, 45 revolver, 357 revolvers. I would also carry a 44Mag if I had one of the Smith light weights. But... that's me. I think shooting a .454 Casull one handed is no problem. Others can't proficiently shoot mags, so carry what you shoot good. All the above is well & good, but if "YOU" can't deliver while under duress or fire, your in deep squat. For me (and those that want my help), I have a tactical range set up in my woods so you can run & gun. Shooting at 6/8" rounds, squares & small to large man size. 2 together to practice hostages, next to trees, in the brush, etc. And the preponderance of this shooting is point shooting within 5yds or line of sight look over, with aimed for more distance work. Nothing much past 10yds. Also do the 5-25yd target stuff for them to learn proper aim if needed. But it all comes down to: Practice like it is real! Do it a lot, get muscle memory & be able to put them in the heart locker & head. Practice doing multiples, 2 in the chest, 1 in the head etc, 2, 3 even 4 bad guys with reloads. The thing is, if you haven't been to war/gunfights, the mindset to do it, is the determining factor. So, rounds down range until it's instinctive & when you see the bad guy with the gun/knife, it's on autopilot. fwiw

 

[srb10864]

Almost the exact scenario happened to one of the guys on my department I retired from. He’s still there as a Captain now. He was hired in 98 or 99 and left a gun shop with his duty gun and ammo he purchased for the police academy he was leaving for just a day or 2 later.

He was walking to his car and saw a car pull up and 2 or 3 black guys exit and walk into the gun store. Something about them gave him a bad vibe, so he wrote the car plate down and drove off. He was contacted by detectives while at the academy within the next 2 days about the double murder and stolen guns at the gun store he was in. His name was in the paperwork because of the gun he had just purchased.

He gave them the info of the dudes and the car they were in and then when the detectives made arrests however many days later, he had to leave the police academy for the physical lineups to see if he could identify them.

After they were charged, one of them a few years later before the trial wanted to have our cop killed so he wouldn’t testify at the trial. They even had his name and address on some paperwork found at the jail he was sitting in. It was some wild **** back in the late 90’s.

 

[Dump1567]

They even had his name and address on some paperwork found at the jail he was sitting in.

Defense Atty's are really good at not redacting that info. on the Police report copy they give their clients who are usually in custody.

 

[steelslaver]

I’m pretty aware of my surroundings when I’m out and about, but given the large variety of shapes/sizes/flavors that criminals come in, I’m not at all confident in my “universal criminal detection ability.” Sure, sketchy looking hood-rat/meth-head/gang-banger types would earn some closer scrutiny and concern, but there are plenty of criminals that look just like an ordinary dude walking down the street.

What’s your secret that results in you always seeing criminals before they see you?

Ya if I decided to go into a life of crime and rob people the very first thing I would buy is some nice suits,

then some campaign posters

 

[TaxPhd]

For me 50+ years experience catching criminals.

But unusual activity should stand out. Two men on bicycles looking into cars with a flashlight at 5 am are not looking for a job.

Stranger knocking on the front door at 10 am is really just checking to see if anyone is home.

I was mainly addressing the following statement of the poster that I responded to:

I’m ALWAYS aware of my surroundings and will see the criminal before they see me.

I understand unusual, sketchy activity. But what about criminals who don’t look anything out of the ordinary, and aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary?