The Wadcutter for Self-Defense: Over-hyped or not?

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Lately, it seems, that there is quite a bit of interest and perhaps uproar about the wadcutter bullet as a viable self-defense option for the short-barreled snub nose revolver. To some, they might argue that no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion. Others might argue that it's a worthless option and has no real-world application to this date.

My question is ...

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.
 
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I like Remington 158 grain LSWC
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Be interesting to see how many verified incidents of its employment there are. As noted a Hit with a Minor Caliber hurts a lot more than a Miss with a Major.
 
Would you be talking of reloads with the hollow base facing out? Else, a wadcutter will likely keep about the same diameter it started with and at velocities that are not amenable to expansion. I have never seem a factory jacketed wadcutter. For self defense work I’d go for the best SJHP money can buy
 
Would you be talking of reloads with the hollow base facing out? Else, a wadcutter will likely keep about the same diameter it started with and at velocities that are not amenable to expansion. I have never seem a factory jacketed wadcutter. For self defense work I’d go for the best SJHP money can buy

Be careful! When you reverse the hollow base bullet you greatly reduce the volume of the case and a standard powder charge could cause dangerously high pressure. Dangerous in that it could blow through the thin center of the bullet and leave it stuck in the barrel.

With that in mind, I loaded a few with a half charge of powder and they worked. They flattened to about the size of a quarter and didn't penetrate much. I didn't have a chronograph in those days so velocity is unknown.
 
And remember that the people with actual experience in a gunfight are long dead. GUys like Jordan or Askins or Bryce are the ones with the know how...

and the knowledge that they learned because THEY were the ones who went home covered in someone elses bits and pieces.

There are people around today with lots of the same knowledge and experience as Askins and the others had, but cannot or will not talk or write about their experiences due to the current legal and political climate.

People who post on or read this forum who have been involved in shootings generally never mention their experiences for the same reasons.
Too much chance of stirring up lawsuits from past shootings.
 
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A wad-cutter is better than carrying nothing

It all depends on your situation and environment

In Florida where everyone wears light weight shorts most of the year it would work just fine

In NY or Montana or Minnesota or Alaska in the wither time a wad-cutter might not get past the leather jacket or sheepskin shearling that folks might be wearing

Choose the proper tool for the job

And remember that the people with actual experience in a gunfight are long dead. GUys like Jordan or Askins or Bryce are the ones with the know how...

and the knowledge that they learned because THEY were the ones who went home covered in someone elses bits and pieces.
If it were true that the only folks that have been in a gunfight are passed and no one ever replaced them, why would Any of us Need to Carry

The truth is that there are are thousands, more probably many tens of thousands of people in this Great Nation who have defended themselves or others by discharging a firearm. I know of several on this Forum that fit that Catagory

There are Many, MANY more if we include those who are abroad protecting the American Way of Life. I have no count of the number in this category that I am acquainted with
 
For what its worth, here is my experiance:


Like everything else, it depends on the round. Wadcutters make a good hole and cause damage, but you need to keep the velocity up. Alot of the WC rounds are meant for target shooting. Buffalo bore and some other folks make defensive load wadcutters if you look hard enough, and also 'hard cast' which wont deform which helps on the gel tests I have seen. Based on my research, all else being equal, the 'right' wadcutter outperforms a FMJ.

With "high-powered" rounds, I have seen ballistics tests where .32 caliber wad-cutters perform amazingly well, almost on par with 380 or even standard 9mm, in terms of penetration depth and wound channel diameters. So I believe whatever caliber, if loaded right it is a round that can punch up out of its weight class.

I mention this little guy (.32) because I studied it alot more than others with regards to wad-cutters. It has always been considered the most inherently accurate round, and with so little recoil even a novice can be good with it. Whatever your carrying, it only helps if you can put the rounds on target. We really became a "bigger is better" gun group as americans, and everyone wants something with a larger caliber that makes a bigger hole. Thats fine for most guys, and if you just carry a tomahawk missile you'll never be outgunned. I was curious about how much is too little and what was overkill so I could figure out how small and manageable a gun could be and still be guaranteed lethal, so I spent a lot of time studying this to try and properly arm my wife with something she would actually carry, and be able to use well. I started at .45 and worked my way down and when she got to the .32 she could put 5 of 5 in the center with rapid fire from 7yds, and thats what I wanted. But the .32 rounds are generally weak, so I looked into how to make them more consistently lethal without loosing the 'shootability'.

On low velocity rounds, like the 32, you often will not have the velocity for a hollow point to work. So besides everyone not liking the small diameter of the round, and then the mostly anemic loads that are easily available, you then apply what works well for a 38spl and it performs like **** on a 32. I know hollow points are not an issue with 9mm and 38spl, because they dont have a velocity issue. However, a wadcutter is already full diameter, almost like shooting already 'expanded'. Plus it 'cuts' the tissue, where the rounded-nose jacketed slugs 'push' tissue out of the way, so the wound channel closes back behind the bullet. A bigger hole is better, because it means more tissue and blood loss. The gel tests I have seen show a wadcutter cutting a much larger hole when compared to a same size FMJ, so a larger wound path with the WC round (all things being equal). I think we all would agree a bigger hole is better. Of course if you carry a 45 or a 500 your making a bigger hole, but I am not a big guy and found myself leaving the 45 in the car too often, and again, doesnt matter if its a bazooka if you dont have it on you, so I moved down to a 38spl because it never leaves my side.

There are drawbacks with power with the wad-cutters, and with rounds under 9mm. but velocity is velocity and as long as you have enough the wadcutter will penetrate leather jacket, sweater, shirt, skin, bone and tissue. I see 15" penetration with good .32 in the gel, and thats through 3 layers of clothes. Once your over say 900fps (which is like 615mph) the bullet is going to penetrate, and I wouldnt want to be shot with one to test it in person.

So, yes, carry the largest caliber that you will carry consistently, but past that I think a good wadcutter load will do more damage than FMJ, but maybe not as much as a hollow point with larger rounds like 38spl or even 9mm. Where velocity becomes a problem (like 380 or .32) wadcutters seem to make up some of that difference and perform well, when loaded right.


Thats one persons research, take it only for what its worth... I'd always recommend buying some ammo and performing your own tests.
 
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If full wadcutter bullets were good for self defense in snubnose revolvers they would be marketed as such.
 
I have been personally involved in shootings using the 148 gr. Lead Full-Wadcutter.

Incident #1 occurred when I was a Police Officer in a small town. Some citizens would leave a bowl of dog or cat food outside overnight and a opossum would come along and help itself to a free meal. The homeowner would send fido outside to chase off the opossum. Well opossums are not a fast runner and have a lot of very sharp little teeth so they would fight back with fido losing the fight. Homeowner would be upset about fido getting chewed up and call us to kill the critter.

So one night I was dispatched to kill a opossum. The homeowner had trapped one inside a large trashcan where it was enjoying a meal. As I was in a mobile park and was concerned about a bullet bouncing off of a hard surface and passing through a thin wall I loaded my gun with a 148 gr. Lead Semi-Wadcutter .38. I took careful aim and from very close range shot the critter at it’s head just above it’s eyes. The bullet failed to penetrate and bounced off resulting in a very angry opossum!!!. Using the same ammunition I then shot it from it’s back hitting the spine and killing it. The bullet passed completely through its body.

Another incident involved hunting rabbits with a handgun. The 148 gr. Lead Full-Wadcutter makes excellent hunting round for rabbits. It passes completely through the body leaving a nice round hole with little bloodshot damage to the meat.

So my point is the 148 gr. Full-Wadcutter will easily reach and may even pass through soft tissue. It will not reliably penetrate and can be deflected by hard item such as a rib bone preventing the bullet from entering the chest cavity. It’s performance can also be diminished by heavy clothing.

In addition many (most?) attackers have not read this discussion forum and do not know they are suppose to end their attack and lay down quietly after being shot once. Without this knowledge their body and brain may not react immediately especially if on drugs or alcohol and continue their attack until blood loss shuts their body down. It is of little comfort to your family and loved ones if your attacker dies 1/2 hour after you do.
 
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Tim Sundles knows more than I do...

"The flat on the nose ensures that the bullet will cut/smash its way through flesh and bone and do much more destruction than typical round nose FMJ bullets. Round nosed bullets tend to slip and slide through matter, doing little damage as opposed to a flat nosed bullet. The flat nose not only wounds much more than a round nosed bullet, but it actually keeps the penetration straight and thus deeper."
 
Why not just use ammo marketed for defensive use? I've never shot anything but paper targets with wadcutter ammo, factory or handloads. For this, such ammo works well. Velocity is low, as designed. From a snubnose .38 it's really low.

Wear shooting glasses and don't get too close to your berm or backstop in case a slow-moving bullet hits something solid and bounces back.
 
Rockquarry & S-W forever,

To your comments, there are some wadcutters that are marketed for self defense. But marketing is just marketing. There are fruit loops marketed for a healthy breakfast, electric cars marketed to save the planet, 22mag marketed as defensive and cigarettes were marketed as not cancer causing, until someone finally put the science to them. Dont pay attention to marketing, pay attention to the math & science and real world results. (I dont mean that to be 'snarky').

They will market what they think they can sell. Interestingly, currently there seem to be more people asking how to carry smaller guns with smaller calibers and still be lethal, which is why I think we are finally starting to see (though rare) marketed defensive wadcutters in small calibers. Might be because more people are arming themselves, which statistically doesnt mean your adding a great amount of 6ft men, your adding (numerically) a majority of women and older folks, who have not carried in the last 20-30 years.

Most rounds sold for wadcutters would not be considered good enough for defense (I mean using the accepted FBI standards of testing). You would have to get the right round or load yourself. You can get them where they will punch through skull, but you have to do that specifically. as far as the bullet shape, its just a chunk of lead. Cast it in a star shape if you want, whatever damages the tissue more would be best. Then push it as hard as you can.

And I also think a wadcutter for 9mm or 38spl is really pointless as a defensive round, because you have so many better options, like hollow points, which is why I brought up the .32. When you have easily available options that are better, why consider anything less?

BSA-1 gave a real world first hand experience, as did I. And in both cases there are some details to consider. Without a major study everything we might contribute to the conversation is anecdotal only, just for consideration, but even with enough anecdotal information you may see a pattern.


And cops typically shoot a lot, so thats always information worth considering. My grandfather was 20yr police office and a Chief for 2. He remembers when they came through and got rid of the large bore magnums, which he preferred. They had bean-counters analyze years of data and found the smaller calibers were easier to control, hence more accurate and lethal to criminals and less lethal to bystanders as a coincidence, so the department made changes accordingly and went with a smaller caliber. Over the next decade until he retired, It worked as expected in that instance, less issues with unintended harm and no increase to danger to the officers.

I know a lot of older people who carry 32 and use wadcutters, but its because they cant handle a 45 or 38spl anymore. I think it is a special circumstance that makes it worth the effort, but a special circumstance means rare occurrence, and would not apply to most people. I think 32 is good for those that have trouble with the recoil of larger calibers, because it is better than nothing and it is accurate. And in 32, wadcutters add a little more lethality without loosing accuracy. so thats a very specific set of circumstances for certain people.

Someone hopped up on drugs wont care if it is a wadcutter, or a hollow point for that matter. The wound channel is different by millimeters. You'll just have to hit the right spots to cause massive blood loss.

Also, when selecting your carry gun/caliber/ammo, look at the statistics of real life defensive uses. There is some really interesting information out there since we have become a camera-society in the last 10-15 years. I have been surprised that some of the things I was taught 20 years ago and really believed dont seem to play out statistically in real life events.

I think this is a great conversation to have, but like all other "what ammo/gun is best" conversations there are a ton of specific details that affect the answer.
 
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Why not just use ammo marketed for defensive use? I've never shot anything but paper targets with wadcutter ammo, factory or handloads. For this, such ammo works well. Velocity is low, as designed. From a snubnose .38 it's really low.

Wear shooting glasses and don't get too close to your berm or backstop in case a slow-moving bullet hits something solid and bounces back.

I agree and will also add;

dont shoot slow speed lead WC bullets at old tires at 25 yards or closer.

One day out in the Nevada desert,
the front of my K15 Chevy Blazer, told me that !!
 
I agree and will also add;

dont shoot slow speed lead WC bullets at old tires at 25 yards or closer.

One day out in the Nevada desert,
the front of my K15 Chevy Blazer, told me that !!

The advice not to use old tires as a backstop is an important safety reminder. Grossly underpowered ammo like target wadcutters makes this practice even more hazardous.
 
I picked up some really low powered super quiet 22 ammo to keep the garden safe and I saw them bounce off squirrels if I am more than 30 feet way. almost useless, but they are quiet!
 
There's no testing or experience....

... and there are a lot of variables. Velocity, hardness of the lead, configuration of the cavity.

I think I could put together something but I would want a softer, but not dead soft, maybe around 12 brinell and jacketed or coated to be able to push some velocity.

I did experiment with modifying some heavy 9mm hollow points but I was stymied by what was available commercially, plated and plain and couldn't get any expansion as the alloys were too hard. It would be a good reason to cast my own, but even though it was a fairly long term experiment, six months or so, I wasn't ready to tackle that.
 

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