Titegroup Question...

Well I a totally confused................
I just came from the Hodgdon site and I found this:

357 Magnum c/o WSPM........

45 ACP c/o F150 .........

9mm c/o CCI500 ............

40mm c/o WSP ................


using TG powder.
 
The guy just loves TG. Seriously, any powder can be used to reload just about any caliber. To call one jack of all trades is laughable, especiallg something as fast as TG. Any medium burner will be more versatile as you get into the magnum calibers & even rifles. There is a reason Unique has such a huge following, truly a joat in smokeless powders; shotgun, rifle of pistol. Then again, that could apply to any number of other powders.

According to Alliant's website, they don't even show a recipe for Unique to be used for the 500....

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

So... Why are you even mentioning it??? I asked for powders that are applicable to the spec's I mentioned in this thread that have RECOMENDATIONS FROM THE POWDER MANUFACTUROR that meet what I want!!!!

I don't really care about other calibers as I'm not loading for them at the present...

I'm loading for the 500 S&W Magnum to a velocity of 1100-1200fps....

If anyone has a problem that this is not a "True" magnum load for the 500, that I should be loading for 2000fps, Well.... They can Bite Me... Develop Lockjaw, and be drug around for a few days while I'm eating a nice big mess of Black Eyed Peas!!!

I mean,, Really..... We're here to exchange useful/accurate information!! Let's stick with that!!!!!! :cool:
 
Hmmm, I would have thought they would have stuffed a 500 with unique.
It really is a natural choice for taming the lion without cutting down to a neutered kitten.

Power pistol is listed, and is kinda like unique in function.
It's max steps out in the 1600 range, so you should be able to dial in for 1200 without breaking a sweat.
 
After reading this for awhile I looked on Hodgdon reloading site. There are 9 loads listed for Titegroup for the 500 Smith & Wesson. Would I use the info and a fast burning powder with caution and not reducing this load maybe. But double charges could happen so care must be taken. when I couldn't find 2400, H110, and other slow burning powders I used Titegroup in my .44 mag. So would Hodgdon print bad loading data I think not. There are always better choices but that call has to be made by you. Your reloading knowledge in general and safety at the bench.
 
l like TiteGroup very much. lts my number one powder. For about a year it was my ONLY POWDER, because that was all l could find. l have been using it in my 629 Magnum Hunter for almost 2 years and its impossible for me to double charge a case. Aside from Sizing ad priming l load
o n e c a s e a t a t i m e.
Powder in case
Case to shell holder
Bullet in case
Seat bullet

lts slower using a Rock Chucker than a Dillon.
But SURER
 
l like TiteGroup very much. lts my number one powder. For about a year it was my ONLY POWDER, because that was all l could find. l have been using it in my 629 Magnum Hunter for almost 2 years and its impossible for me to double charge a case. Aside from Sizing ad priming l load
o n e c a s e a t a t i m e.
Powder in case
Case to shell holder
Bullet in case
Seat bullet

lts slower using a Rock Chucker than a Dillon.
But SURER

My New Hero!!!!! ;) :D :D
 
According to Alliant's website, they don't even show a recipe for Unique to be used for the 500....

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

So... Why are you even mentioning it??? I asked for powders that are applicable to the spec's I mentioned in this thread that have RECOMENDATIONS FROM THE POWDER MANUFACTUROR that meet what I want!!!!

I don't really care about other calibers as I'm not loading for them at the present...

I'm loading for the 500 S&W Magnum to a velocity of 1100-1200fps....

If anyone has a problem that this is not a "True" magnum load for the 500, that I should be loading for 2000fps, Well.... They can Bite Me... Develop Lockjaw, and be drug around for a few days while I'm eating a nice big mess of Black Eyed Peas!!!

I mean,, Really..... We're here to exchange useful/accurate information!! Let's stick with that!!!!!! :cool:
Alliant doesn't show a lot of loads for many of their powders in many calibers. They are pushing newer powders, so not producing a lot of data with older powders. Also unique isn't really suitable for the 500 but more so than TG. Why I mention it, unique is a safer powder to use in a large case like the 500. If you had enough experience reloading you would know this, regardless of what Alliant puts on their site. You can take or leave the advice given, just don't come crying when you KB your gun because you missed that dbl charge.
 
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Alliant doesn't show a lot of loads for many of their powders in many calibers. They are pushing newer powders, so not producing a lot of data with older powders. Also unique isn't really suitable for the 500 but more so than TG. Why I mention it, unique is a safer powder to use in a large case like the 500. If you had enough experience reloading you would know this, regardless of what Alliant puts on their site. You can take or leave the advice given, just don't come crying when you KB your gun because you missed that dbl charge.

I'm not going to come crying anywhere! And I will take the advise that is backed up with a powder manufacturers recommended recipe. And I will leave advise that is NOT backed up with a powder manufacturers recommended recipe alone!!

I won't use it period!!

I would much rather use Titegroup with the manufacturers recommendations than follow someone's recipe that say's "Just stuff the casing as full as it will hold without compressing the powder"..... :eek:


Riiiight........ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

One that's not from the manufacturer..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess I'm not gonna have that much experience with loads that aren't listed by the powder manufacturer...

I'll just do without the experience I guess...... :rolleyes:

When I load, I'm FULLY aware of the consequences of a double charge: Not only will I loose a $1300.00 pistol, I might loose my hand and part of my arm also!!

Not gonna happen on my watch...... :cool:
 
If you want to avoid overcharging you can always adjust the case volume...

13c9626c-42d7-4966-b0af-a7021d548627.jpg


Works for me.:D:D:D

I Like Mike!!!!! :D
 
Here's a link to a page that was helpful to me in deciding on the powder I wanted to use loading a 350gr Hornady XTP bullet.. While Unique is NOT listed for the 350gr bullet, it is listed for other sizes..

Reloading 500 S&W Magnum Page

Correct me if I'm wrong but the largest charge I saw listed was for the 325 Grain BARNES XPB bullet using 20.1gr of Unique....

The largest charge for the 350gr bullet using Titegroup was 18.5gr.....

So we're talking 1.5gr difference between the max charges here, 3.0gr difference between on a double throw...

3.0gr is gonna make a double charge easier to see visually??

Really?????

I don't think so but... Then again, I'm just starting to learn about how to reload for the 500........ :rolleyes:
 
And I will take the advise that is backed up with a powder manufacturers recommended recipe.
roscoepc

Looks like your not following your own advise. Mr Smith page does not have any pressure data or attributions of where the data came from - IMO it is just another reloaders notes.

Please look at IMR Trailboss and its instructions.

An email to any of the powder manufactures will net you a response and the answer will be from an "expert informed source" typically within a week.

Or you use information from who knows whom on a forum or intranet page from individuals who may or may not know the time of day.

If you want to use a fast powder use it, in the end your gun, hands, and eyes.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy
 
Ruggy, yes that page is indeed really just a bunch of notes but it did give me a lot of baseline info of just where to look to confirm the info listed!! So I am following my own advice by finding the info and then Confirming it at the manufacturers website!

And Thanks! I'll take a look at the Trailboss and I appreciate the suggestion!!
 
Here's a link to a page that was helpful to me in deciding on the powder I wanted to use loading a 350gr Hornady XTP bullet.. While Unique is NOT listed for the 350gr bullet, it is listed for other sizes..

Reloading 500 S&W Magnum Page

Correct me if I'm wrong but the largest charge I saw listed was for the 325 Grain BARNES XPB bullet using 20.1gr of Unique....

The largest charge for the 350gr bullet using Titegroup was 18.5gr.....

So we're talking 1.5gr difference between the max charges here, 3.0gr difference between on a double throw...

3.0gr is gonna make a double charge easier to see visually??

Really?????

I don't think so but... Then again, I'm just starting to learn about how to reload for the 500........ :rolleyes:

You are really new to reloading aren't you? Put 18 gr of TG in a case & 18 gr of unique. The unique will occupy 1.5x the space & operate at lower pressures. Power pistol is better still, lower pressures, same volume as unique. 1.5x the volume just makes it easier to see a powder charge in a larger case.
Fwiw, if I only loaded using manufacturers data, I would never be able to load. Especially when it comes to allient, terrible data site.
The other issue all rookie reloaders make is assuming pressures build in a linear fashion as they hit max. This just isn't true. A little over max with something like TG can produce a spike, less likely as powder burn rates slow. You don't need to keep defending your choice, it's your choice. People here are just passing along their considerable exp to the less accomplished.
 
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Titegroup has been the focus of similar drama in a few Internet rants about blown guns.
Usually it's a magnum cartridge and the whole powder position thing comes up.
It may actually have legs, but it has never been proven.

This urban legend aside, (snip)

Titegroup has a rep for being spikey approaching max pressure. Strictly anecdotal & non scientific but it sure seems that whenever a blown polymer pistol is shown it usually involves .40 S&W and Titegroup reloads. I cringe whenever I see somebody recommend Titegroup to a n00b reloader. I won't even use it.

As for Titegroup in a .500 S&W? Just shaking my head here...:rolleyes:
 
You are really new to reloading aren't you? Put 18 gr of TG in a case & 18 gr of unique. The unique will occupy 1.5x the space & operate at lower pressures. Power pistol is better still, lower pressures, same volume as unique. 1.5x the volume just makes it easier to see a powder charge in a larger case.
Fwiw, if I only loaded using manufacturers data, I would never be able to load. Especially when it comes to allient, terrible data site.
The other issue all rookie reloaders make is assuming pressures build in a linear fashion as they hit max. This just isn't true. A little over max with something like TG can produce a spike, less likely as powder burn rates slow. You don't need to keep defending your choice, it's your choice. People here are just passing along their considerable exp to the less accomplished.

Fred, one of the things I REALLY hate about about the internet is that conversation's/threads on the 'net can easily be taken the wrong way and people will get mad and vehemently defend their position at all cost's while, if the same discussion had happened in person, by this time we'd most likely grinning and thanking each other and having a beer or ice tea cooking hamburger's or steak's swapping stories about hunting, fishing, and such!!

I've been guilty of this at times as anyone who has ever posted on any forum!!

Yes I really am a Newbie when it comes to reloading as I was just starting my research about a year ago into set-up's, powders, and other stuff.. And I have done what I thought was the best for me, given what I had to work with given product availability.....

Again, If me, you or anyone else had this same conversation in person you would find that I don't assume anything, I do my research, and I'm always on the look-out for a better way to "build the mousetrap"!! Safely!! ;)

If you or anyone else took me the wrong way my apologies are extended!! Again, sometimes using the keyboard Really just don't get it!! ;)
 
I think Freds post summed it all up really well.

Just for the sake of further discussion or knowledge.

Speer #14, Lyman #49 nor HORNADY 8 mention or tested Titegroup in their tests of the 500 SW Magnum.

Seems there is a good reason for that. The Handloader magazine article also did not mention the 500 SW Mag.


As also mentioned you can use TG, but is simply is not a good choice with the many other powders out there,neither would BE or other super fast powders.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Some quotes from the magazine article. I can not print the whole thing, copyright stuff

Charles Petty HL 292

"I can't really say Titegroup is the
best powder for any specific cartridge,

Of course, Titegroup also has its
critics, some highly vocal on the
web. One gripe I hear a lot is that
it is smoky and dirty, and some of
those shooters make it a point to
mention they clean their guns
every time they shoot – but they
worry about dirty? Both complaints
about smoke might well be
traced to the bullet lube if cast
bullets are involved. Another gripe
is that it is possible to doublecharge
the case. The fact that the
same can be said for virtually any
handgun powder makes me wonder
about the shooter. Inattentive
loaders probably should use Trail
Boss."

 
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Titegroup has a rep for being spikey approaching max pressure. Strictly anecdotal & non scientific but it sure seems that whenever a blown polymer pistol is shown it usually involves .40 S&W and Titegroup reloads. I cringe whenever I see somebody recommend Titegroup to a n00b reloader. I won't even use it.

As for Titegroup in a .500 S&W? Just shaking my head here...:rolleyes:

I don't really understand the desire for a greatly reduced 500 at all. 45-70 is a better choice for economy loading ... if there is such a thing with any of these moose missiles.
From round ball and shot loads on up to 500gr engine block busters, its out there somewhere.
 
Fred, one of the things I REALLY hate about about the internet is that conversation's/threads on the 'net can easily be taken the wrong way and people will get mad and vehemently defend their position at all cost's while, if the same discussion had happened in person, by this time we'd most likely grinning and thanking each other and having a beer or ice tea cooking hamburger's or steak's swapping stories about hunting, fishing, and such!!

If you or anyone else took me the wrong way my apologies are extended!! Again, sometimes using the keyboard Really just don't get it!! ;)

I'm taking no offense at all, I can tell you are new to this. It's just a matter of understanding things like powder burn rate & volumetric charge vs charge weight. You'll figure it out, just trying to keep you from blowing up a gun. It is not a coincidence that most KB guns are done using uberfast burning powders with supposedly small charges.
I don't like TG at all, for anything; burns too hot for lead bullets & too small a powder charge for me to visually verify charges & I always visually verify charges. It's how I have stayed safe for 40yrs of reloading & more than 250K rds downrange w/o incident. There are at least 6 powders of sim burn rate, all have a greater volume per charge weight than TG, all burn cooler, better for lead bullets, pretty much all I shoot.
 
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This thread really illustrates some of the problems with the reloading
forum. A guy asks a fairly specific question involving a powder he
already has and opens the door for a few of the regular know-it-alls to
redirect the thread topic to an opportunity to prove how brilliant they
are. All kinds of responses that absolutely do not speak to the original
theme. Where does anyone read that the OP asks for opinions on the
best powder for loading the 500 ctg? Where does anyone read that
the OP asks for dire warnings and suggestions that he is incapable of
using a specific powder without losing body parts? Smug in their
knowledge that they are never wrong certain regular posters seldom
pass up a chance to redirect a thread topic to a theme that just begs
for their "expert" advice.
 
Ya, don't you hate when people do that or bring up Magazine articles they tell us how wonderful a powder is.?:rolleyes:

The OP was actually asking about using filler as he heard it at Bass Pro, so it was downhill from there!:D
 
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This thread really illustrates some of the problems with the reloading
forum. A guy asks a fairly specific question involving a powder he
already has and opens the door for a few of the regular know-it-alls to
redirect the thread topic to an opportunity to prove how brilliant they
are. All kinds of responses that absolutely do not speak to the original
theme. Where does anyone read that the OP asks for opinions on the
best powder for loading the 500 ctg? Where does anyone read that
the OP asks for dire warnings and suggestions that he is incapable of
using a specific powder without losing body parts? Smug in their
knowledge that they are never wrong certain regular posters seldom
pass up a chance to redirect a thread topic to a theme that just begs
for their "expert" advice.

Yep, then there are the cry baby, college prof types that offer nothing to the discussion at all but enjoy a good whine. If a thread or response bothers you, don't play.
Many of us answered the op question directly. Then, not because we know it all, but maybe a bit more than the op, offer suggestions as to a better approach. It's an open forum, sharing thoughts & ideas. Don't like it, don't care really. Now where did I put that cheese to go with the whine??
 
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^^^^^^

Exactly. Some have tried to educate the OP (who admits being new) on the different powder characteristics.

Others post a reference to Magazine article that has nothing to do with the 500 SW Mag. How does that help?

deadhorse1.gif
 
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I don't really understand the desire for a greatly reduced 500 at all. 45-70 is a better choice for economy loading ... if there is such a thing with any of these moose missiles.
From round ball and shot loads on up to 500gr engine block busters, its out there somewhere.

The short explanation is I want to shoot the 500 comfortably and for more than 20 rounds per range visit. :D Ya can't do either with anything much above a 350gr Winchester Reduced Recoil round, which I decided is the particular load that my gun "like's" as far as accuracy and felt recoil. With a muzzle velocity of 1350fps/1418ft-lbs it's not as stout as the larger rounds but it's STILL a magnum round for the 500.

Right now I'm probably at about 1100fps with my hand rolled ones, (not chrono'd yet), but it's a very comfortable round to shoot in the gun..

Is my load economical?? At a bit over $0.35/round I'd like to think so!! :D
 
^^^^^^

Exactly. Some have tried to educate the OP (who admits being new) on the different powder characteristics.

Others post a reference to Magazine article that has nothing to do with the 500 SW Mag. How does that help?

deadhorse1.gif


I'm assuming I'm what's getting beaten with the hammer??!!!!! :eek: :D :D :D :D
 
I'm assuming I'm what's getting beaten with the hammer??!!!!! :eek: :D :D :D :D

No, not you whatsoever at all.:D

When a topic get long and drawn out it is refereed to as: "beating a dead horse";)

Lee FCD

Wet vs dry tumbling

Can I shoot +P in xyz gun etc etc

Dillon is the greatest.
 
Dear Roscoepc !
My answer to your question is phisical-chemical , the total burn time of a charge is affected by the burn-rate and the distance the flame has to travel in the material (you have to multiply the two) , the prsure-peak timeing is built relatively to the answer to the mentiond equation and the prsure-peak-fortitude is affected by it too and the surface-erea and the volume of the chamber (all 3 variables) .
So if the surface erea ignited is larger in one case - no doubt the presure-peak will be differnt ! .
So if the powder is filling the cartridge totally , the surface-erea ignited is the cut-width-erea of the cartridge, and if the powder is less in volume than it can get a lot bigger ignition-surface (cut-length-erea) of the cartridge .
To my humble opinion, if you will use a solid filler on top of the powder charge you will eliminate the possibility of higher presure-peak.
Good luck
O.g.

Excellent answer!!!! DING DING DING DING we have a winner!!!!!

The OP asked "In say, the 17gr of Titegroup mentioned, there is a certain amount of pressure produced when the powder is ignited.. How would the position of the powder in the case affect the pressure produced?? That is the question I'm asking you guy's! How could the pressure increase enough without a double throw of powder because I'm thinking that what happened: A double throw!!!"

The same thing happens in rifle cases with fast burning powders. The min/max charge of a fast burning powder like reddot in a 30-06 case is around 4gr with most bullets. The fast burning powder is spread out the length of the llloooooonnnngggg case and the powder flashes off the whole length of the case changing the burn rate/pressure.

When I look at different powders and I'm trying to decide if I want to test them. I'll look at the powders burn rate, if it's a high energy powder (high nitroglycerin content/also good for melting powder hoppers if left in them) and a lee powder dipper chart.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

This tells me the density of a powder. Over the decades I've had my best results with my reloads when I've kept my pistol loads in the 70%+ load capacity. So if I find that a fast burning powder that is extremely dense it tends to work better in small cases.

A good example titegroup vs clays:
Both are fast burning powders with similar burn rates. But the titegroup is allot denser, using a lee 1cc powder dipper;
titegroup ='s 11.8gr
clays ='s 6.8gr
The clays has 173% more case capacity for the came load compared to titegroup. (reddot is close to clays in density/1cc ='s 7.1gr).

This tells me that the titegroup would be better suited for small capacity cases & the clays would be better suited for large capacity cases.

I understand the op looking for a reduced load, I also understand other peoples concern about using a high density/high energy powder like titegroup for that reduced load. Personally I like to use these powders for plinking/powder puff/target loads.



clays 1cc ='s 6.8gr
am select 1cc ='s 7.5gr
trailboss 1cc ='s 4.6gr

Plinking loads of clays:
Clays ='s a fast burning powder that isn't very dense/better for larger capacity cases.



Plinking loads of bullseye:
Bullseye ='s a high energy fast burning powder that has a medium density/better for small capacity cases.

45acp's & bullseye



38spl's & bullseye (left 2 targets)



Anyway, hope this helps in answering your question about powder position and hopefully give you something to look at when you studying different powders.

O-ya, something else to look at. There was some mention of bullseye powder and problems. It used to be the "bad boy on the block" decades ago. It looks like titegroup wears the crown now. What alliant (hercules powder co) released back in the 60's to help reloaders understand the affects of bullet seating depths and powder charges (double charge) and how those things related to pressure increases/kabooms.

 
I admit to never owning or shooting a .500 or even handloading for one but I do have experience with TiteGroup. I am a former competitive trapshooter (PA state Class AA champion in 2000) and shot and reloaded Remington shells almost exclusively. When the STS and Nitro 27 family of target loads was introduced, the powder used in the hotter Nitro 27 handicap shells was and I think still is TiteGroup.

Consider the interior volume of a 12-gauge shotshell and then picture even the maximum charge of just 18.1 grains of TiteGroup under 1-1/8 ounces of lead shot (that's 482.2 grains of projectile weight not including the wad's weight) in the bottom of that wide hull. Pretty thin layer of powder, huh? And even with the longest wad Remington makes for 12-gauge target loads, the TGT-12, which also is in the factory loading, there is air space between the wad's over-powder cup and the powder unless the shell's crimp is very concave. Double-charging can easily be accommodated by the hull but maybe not by the gun.

I am not a TiteGroup fan in trap loads because of felt recoil. I'm a proponent of larger charges of slower powders - they exhibit more of a push than a punch when the gun is fired even when my chronograph tells me the muzzle velocity of the two rounds is nearly the same and I don't know which shell I was handed (I used nothing but the now discontinued IMR PB for many years). I've also tried TiteGroup in revolver target loads and find that it doesn't burn real cleanly, I suppose because of a pressure drop caused by the barrel-cylinder gap. It works decently in my .38 Super and .45ACP 1911s but a heavier charge of AutoComp gives me better accuracy at the same velocity.

I'm with the guys who are suggesting a different powder. I know some of them are still a little hard to find although that situation is improving every day but here's a suggestion. Stop shopping where everybody else does! Bass Pro Shop and Cabela's never have much of anything that is in demand on hand because so many people shop there. Instead, seek out the small gun shops in your area and if you don't know where they are, ask at the gun club to which you belong (you do belong to at least one, right?) In this area, that's where the inventory is, not at our local BPS, Field & Stream or the Cabela's an hour away. I mainly patronize two local shops and I have seldom come home without what I went for and I do a lot of handloading.

Powders as fast-burning as TiteGroup belong mainly in rounds like the aforementioned .38 Special and .45ACP target loads and of course some shotgun rounds. That "handrifle" of yours yearns for a slower-burning fuel.

Ed
 
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The short explanation is I want to shoot the 500 comfortably and for more than 20 rounds per range visit. :D Ya can't do either with anything much above a 350gr Winchester Reduced Recoil round, which I decided is the particular load that my gun "like's" as far as accuracy and felt recoil. With a muzzle velocity of 1350fps/1418ft-lbs it's not as stout as the larger rounds but it's STILL a magnum round for the 500.

Right now I'm probably at about 1100fps with my hand rolled ones, (not chrono'd yet), but it's a very comfortable round to shoot in the gun..

Is my load economical?? At a bit over $0.35/round I'd like to think so!! :D

just troubled myself to compute cost of a few of mine.
I have a full house 405 grain 45-70 load that hits the pocket book at about 24 cents a pop.

I have a solid midrange 44 mag load that runs at about 12 cents. Good shoot all day load without becoming useless off paper targets.

I also have a 45 ACP load that is fairly right around the same economics as the 44 load mentioned give or take a cent... probably take.

Thing with each of them is also that my operating pressures are fairly low, which extends my case life over yours significantly.
the price for replacement brass .... its all cheaper than 500 and the 45 nearly freeloads on range brass.

But don't look at this as a condescending lecture or a competition. Its an excuse to buy more guns.
Magnum Research BFR in 30-30 might be a serious ballistic playground.

just sayin'
 
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