Total Vindication.

[mn_doggie]

Seems the 3 MOA thing is based on peoples' experiences.

I haven't had a chance to shoot 50 or 100 yd groups with mine. They were acquired after this winters' lousy weather started...

My 15-22s (I have 2) will shoot 5 shot 1/4" groups at 50 ft. Now let's get straight what that commonly means:

A five shot 1/4" group will have a GREATEST CENTER TO CENTER distance beteen any two of the five rds of 1/4". In the case of 22LR that would put all the holes COMPLETELY INSIDE a 1/2" diameter circle.

I've also seen people shoot 10 shot groups, pick the 3 that are closest together and use those as their 3 shot group accuracy. Great for bragging rights I guess, but for anything else, just nonsense...

If the requirement is that any two holes have to be within 1/4 inch CTC, how can the diameter of the circle be as large as 1/2"?

Example hole #1 is the dead center of your 1/2" diameter circle. Hole #2 is 1/4" away from hole #1 at the 9 o'clock position. Hole #3 is at the 3 o'clock position and is 1/4" away from hole #1.

Holes #2 and #3 don't meet the test of GREATEST CENTER TO CENTER distance beteen any two of the five rds of 1/4".

They are 1/2" away from each other. To me, that makes the group a 1/2" group.

 

[tomcatt51]

If the requirement is that any two holes have to be within 1/4 inch CTC, how can the diameter of the circle be as large as 1/2"?

Example hole #1 is the dead center of your 1/2" diameter circle. Hole #2 is 1/4" away from hole #1 at the 9 o'clock position. Hole #3 is at the 3 o'clock position and is 1/4" away from hole #1.

Holes #2 and #3 don't meet the test of GREATEST CENTER TO CENTER distance beteen any two of the five rds of 1/4".

They are 1/2" away from each other. To me, that makes the group a 1/2" group.

You really need to read my post again. In your example you have 3 holes in a line on 1/4" centers. That would be a 1/2" group because the GREATEST center to center distance would be the center to center distance between the 3 and 9 o'clock holes, 1/2" for a 1/2" group. Your 3 shot group would be completely inside a 3/4" circle assuming it's a 22LR group.

I said "A five shot 1/4" group will have a GREATEST CENTER TO CENTER distance beteen any two of the five rds of 1/4". In the case of 22LR that would put all the holes COMPLETELY INSIDE a 1/2" diameter circle." This is correct.

In fact, it is true regardless of the number of shots in the group, the group size will be GREATEST center to center distance between any two of the holes.

Would this have been clearer if I had said the group size is the center to center distance of the two most widely spaced holes? Same thing, just different wording.

 

[mn_doggie]

You really need to read my post again. In your example you have 3 holes in a line on 1/4" centers. That would be a 1/2" group because the GREATEST center to center distance would be the center to center distance between the 3 and 9 o'clock holes, 1/2" for a 1/2" group. Your 3 shot group would be completely inside a 3/4" circle assuming it's a 22LR group.

I said "A five shot 1/4" group will have a GREATEST CENTER TO CENTER distance beteen any two of the five rds of 1/4". In the case of 22LR that would put all the holes COMPLETELY INSIDE a 1/2" diameter circle." This is correct.

In fact, it is true regardless of the number of shots in the group, the group size will be GREATEST center to center distance between any two of the holes.

Would this have been clearer if I had said the group size is the center to center distance of the two most widely spaced holes? Same thing, just different wording.

I did read your post several times.

Your new wording is better, IMO (and shorter).

Are you adding a caliber diameter to get the 3/4" circle for a 1/2" group?

 

[tomcatt51]

Are you adding a caliber diameter to get the 3/4" circle for a 1/2" group?

Yes. That would give (in round numbers) the diameter of a circle the holes would be completely inside for the group size. With 22LR, a 1/2" GROUP would have the holes COMPLETELY INSIDE a 3/4" circle.

My point was that group sizes are normally a center to center measurement NOT the diameter of the circle the holes would fall completely inside. Mixing the two just muddies the water and when you add to that some of the fuzzy math used in this thread....

 

[Rob1]

I am gobsmacked by that setup! You must be minted
All this doubt here has given me the collywobbles. I find his grouping not at all barmy. I believe everything on the net I sure wish I could afford an Acog though but im having hard lines in the phosphate industry right now. Anyway sorry to waffle on
Cheers from San Serriffe!

My friend I wish I was.. lol

 

[Rob1]

For those that asked

I have here some practice groups that you may find interesting.

For your information as to how I have measured the groups, I work from outside edge to outside edge of the holes, not the centre of the individual holes.

I am trying to sort a video of the field I shot in and the conditions of the day will clearly be seen.

Not exactly the results I was hoping for but to be honest i'm pleased enough with them.

For those that want to know, Eley HV solid nosed. Winchester copper nosed HV. so no " special expensive " or " precision " ammo. On the video if I can sort it I even put a group of Winchester HP Subs, which can to be fair be seen to "drift " around on the target somewhat.

Hope these help or at least show that it isn't all bluster, even though I didn't manage to get the 1/4 - 1/2 on this attempt am pleased enough with the 3/4 especially as the wind wasn't very helpful.

I didn't go in to detail on the targets of marking off the shots that I " Pulled / Snatched " for whatever reasons ) but I think for those that know what i'm talking about you will know which ones were those. ( Brit Mil tech term ) and yes I am proficient enough to know which ones they were and why.

If any one wants to know how I know this then PM and I will explain in more detail, but these posts are long enough to not want to blab on and on....

Will try and get the video link up for the last target with multiple groups sorted soonest. Oh and as a minor point, the groups were deliberately shot off centre to help with easier viewing ( just wanted to be clear on that point....LOL )

Any how, enjoy

 

[Rob1]

My Practice "RANGE"

AND I must ADD I was A tadd out on my distances, I re-paced the firing point to target board and it was not 70 yds.

It was in fact 67 Large Paces. So my Tech info was a little out of whack but close enough I think.

Any hows, enough from me til the VID Link is up.

 

[tomcatt51]

I have here some practice groups... am pleased enough with the 3/4...

Nice shooting. Do you still have the forend/handguard end cap in place?

 

[Rob1]

15-22 @ 70yds

Hi Guys, here's the link for last target.

video - YouTube

Sorry for the delay I am not that techy and getting this off 2 Iphones and then together and uploaded was a bit of a stretch for me.

Hope you like the overlay track, one of my all time faves

Have a look and see the conditions.

3rd group was shot with Winchester HP Subs just to see how they perform at distance, as with the individual groups not all were super tight but I am happy with the 1st, 2nd and 4th at that range and with that wind.

and to answer a question posed, no it is not with a free floating barrel, nut is still inplace.

Wabbits and cans beware!!!!

 

[trebor127]

Keith,
Is that for the real tree? Man that must be sooo frustrating!!

I was getting so fed up waiting for good weather and optics to get out and just shoot. I don't like "wasting ammo" but do like to shoot.

I am stunned at this tech info that has come in. But hey ho!

How
HoPe you get them soon mate. Will soon be time to change the clocks again and dark nights return. Though that should not prove a problem with the "Gucci Tac Lamp" that I saw you post.

How you getting on with the rifle? Had many rounds through it yet?

Mark.

yes Rob for the realtree.......i have a magpul pistol grip in FDE and a set of Troy battle sights in FDE,cost nearly as much as the rifle thats about it for now,the EXPS-0 in tan and the G33 also in tan are coming via Germany sling mount and BAD ambi safety from America......still weeks away........not even got the Troy adjustment tool yet,so it shoots in the right direction, around 300mm to the left lol

keith

 

[trebor127]

Keith,
Is that for the real tree? Man that must be sooo frustrating!!

I was getting so fed up waiting for good weather and optics to get out and just shoot. I don't like "wasting ammo" but do like to shoot.

I am stunned at this tech info that has come in. But hey ho!

How
HoPe you get them soon mate. Will soon be time to change the clocks again and dark nights return. Though that should not prove a problem with the "Gucci Tac Lamp" that I saw you post.

How you getting on with the rifle? Had many rounds through it yet?

Mark.

Opps nearly forgot the lamp Mark

keith

 

[jbarchitect68]

Paces? Are we having a duel?
To resolve this accuracy issue, we need to know the exact distance you shot at.
A large stride for me is still less than yard especially if I was walking in a dirt field.
When you get a chance, please use that tape measure and give us the actual distance in yards.
Either way, they're nice groups.

Your friend across the pond.

 

[Rob1]

Paces? Are we having a duel?
To resolve this accuracy issue, we need to know the exact distance you shot at.
A large stride for me is still less than yard especially if I was walking in a dirt field.
When you get a chance, please use that tape measure and give us the actual distance in yards.
Either way, they're nice groups.

Your friend across the pond.

Hahaha

A duel would require pistols and at that point I would be at a distinct disadvantage as hand guns are banned in UK for civilian ownership, not that I am unable to use them, ( mostly Browning HP 9mm) just not able to own as a civvy, (civilian).

As you asked for it I have put the tape to good use and measured a pace, it comes in at 46" so to convert that for you in to YDS, 67 paces at 46" per pace equates to 79.9 yds.

I was happy with a guesstimate of 67 yds but as you wanted precision there it is.

End result there fore is even better than anticipated, thank you. Hope that helps some.

happy days and holy targets......

 

[IceStone]

What happened to the 3 MOA crowd?

 

[tomcatt51]

I have put the tape to good use and measured a pace, it comes in at 46"

??? I'm 6' 1", wear 36" inseam (my height is in my legs with a relatively short torso) jeans and a LONG "pace" is 36". I've checked "paces" vs measuring the distance with a tape on un-even ground like you have in your pics and my "paces" actually run ~32". I count "paces", subtract 10% and am real close to the distance in yards. Are you 7 1/2 feet tall?

 

[Elmerviking]

Congratulations Rob1..you managed to fool a couple of guys with that grouping in a windy weather and with standard ammo in a semiautomatic rifle. However...you will never fool me and some of the 3 MOA guys. I watched the video before it was no longer available in USA.At what distance did you shoot the groups with an honest answer? I bet you and. your buddies are laughing at "stupid Yankees ". Maybe this is some form of English humor....Americans (like my wife) don't understand your sense of humor at all. Good luck...continue to practice and you might be able to shoot decent groups in a couple of decades.
Have fun/
Elmerviking

 

[RedNeck Jim]

What happened to the 3 MOA crowd?

Sometimes it is better to leave a discussion.

 

[cyphertext]

Nevermind...

 

[Rob1]

To end this at this point I shall point out a couple of things, 1st don't know why vid is not available in US. 2nd I can't figure how you guys use a measure. I measured from the heel of back foot to toe of front foot.

And as for fooling people, was not my intention to try and dupe anyone. Simply responded to what was put.

And to clear up on a final point as to shooting groups.

I have 25 years experience as a small arms instructor covering everything from rifle, light support weapons and section machine guns and SF role crew served systems and also was a range conducting officer and shooting coach, after spending many years as a senior NCO and finishing as Company Sergeant Major before taking a commission.

As for my integrity as to what I can do I will stop there. Some of you asked and I supplied what I was asked to. If you can't accept that someone outside the US can shoot then for that I am truly sorry.

There has been some great feedback and comments through this post but to insult my integrity like that is frustrating to say the least. I shall not post on this thread again. You hyper critical 1/32 inch perfect shooters can chalk up the success and have a miller.

I will also look forward to seeing the posted resulting groups of said 1/32 inch prefer shooter targets shot over rough ground free hand in far from perfect conditions.

Oh what was that? Tumble weed and swinging saloon doors?

I will ask that at an appropriate time one of the admin lock/ close/ delete as I will now end it there.

Rant over.

Blue skies and happy landings to any airborne brothers on here. I feel it's time to cut away!!!!!

 

[tomcatt51]

2nd I can't figure how you guys use a measure. I measured from the heel of back foot to toe of front foot.

We measure like rational people. When you measure a "pace" as you do I would expect that if I asked how tall you were you'd measure from the ground to as high as you could reach and say that was your "height".

If you want to see the fallacy of how you "measure" a "pace" take 10 "paces" and measure the actual distance you covered...

I do think you shot the groups shown before the video vanished but at 60 yds at most, or more likely, less.