Trapdoor Springfields?

[JayFramer]

Anyone ever owned or shot a U.S. Springfield Trapdoor .45-70 breechloader, either original or reproduction?

I’m interested in owning it for the history and experience. Thoughts?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a 1873 Cavalry Carbine (Pre Custer!). Friends of mine have an H&R Officers Model, it shoots real well with Black Powder or Smokeless!

On the H&R's, you would want to below Serial Number 5000, that where the quality drops off.

Ivan

Maybe Iggy will show the trapdoor he put together. Please.

 

[italiansport]

I have an original Springfield trapdoor musket and have occasionally shot it. It's a real hoot and perfectly safe if in good condition with modern commercial ammunition.
Jim

 

[torizus]

I've got a couple, dont shoot much but they are fun. One thing to remember, the originals cannot handle modern ammo, I load for mine.
Surprisingly accurate out to 100 yards with right ammo.

 

[DWalt]

At one time I had two rifles and a carbine. At present I have only one, an 1884 rifle. Surprisingly there are still many original parts available for them.

 

[Bakebfr480]

Yes, I've owned both!

 

[Simson-Suhl]

Original trap door black powder only. The H&R rifles probably would do fine with standard smokeless loads.
A note or thought: Shiloh Sharps Rifles are made of modern up to date materials, however, they are for black powder only. Call Shiloh sometime and hear the scream of the wounded panther if you even think about smokeless. Voids everything!!
And no jacked bullets in the originals due to the wear they can cause.

 

[Rudi]

Got to shoot an Indian Wars vet. when I was a kid. What a great rifle.

 

[jpage]

North of $2K for a really nice one. Can someone opine on the finer points carbine vs. cut-down rifle fakery ?

 

[gregintenn]

I'd like to have a carbine. So far, I've only found rifles priced reasonably. They are longer than a flagpole!

 

[CH4]

My Grand Dad bought one from Bannermans when they came from Missouri and homesteaded in Wyoming


He thought he might need a gun for Indians and outlaws etc.
He put it in the saddle room in the barn where it remained unfired for 40 years.
When they abandoned the homestead and moved to town my Dad and I were going through the buildings and I found the rifle. It was in sad shape.

I was 4 years old, my Dad put it away in a closet and it was forgotten.

I found it again when I was college, but wasn't in a position to do anything with it. So it remained in the closet until my folks retired to town and my wife and I left LE and moved out to the ranch.

I found the old rifle again. This time I did something with it. I got an unfired rifle barrel to replace the rusted one. I got a sporter stock from Rhinehart-Fajen and replaced the old military stock.

This is the result. I have taken antelope, mule deer, and an elk with it.
It's my favorite rifle.

Cool gun!
Great story!

 

[torizus]

North of $2K for a really nice one. Can someone opine on the finer points carbine vs. cut-down rifle fakery ?

A true carbine can be worth 2-3 times in value if in good condition and original. Serial number, exact barrel length,saddle ring ,rear sight and butt plate pretty much is the basis on determining true originals.

I held the late Keith Rush in high esteem as the goto guy for anything trapdoor. His collection was amazing but his knowledge far exceeded any other source I know of. Many records still exist regarding issue but info on the exact features are sketchy.

If you have a historical thing going on inside, like any other old firearm, you have to wonder where this rifle was and what did it experience. Those carbines give me a warm fuzzy feeling everytime I pick it up.

Sometimes ya get that Little Big Horn feeling then you have to remember that, some carbines/rifles were actually born as Civil War muskets so that feeling of wonderment can go to a lot of places

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I carried one up San Juan Hill in 1898.

 

[k22fan]

While I have not owned a Trap Door I reloaded for two carbines that were loaned to me and fired a friend's rifle. All of them had their original 19th Century barrels. Typical of original barrels their groove diameters ran from o.463" to 0.468". I read that Italian made modern reproduction Trap Doors had modern 0.458" to 0.459" groove diameters. There is plenty of reloading information in reloading manuals for modern barrels.

There are two ways to assemble cartridges that will be accurate in original barrels. When Trap Doors were new the sloppy barrel manufacture was not important because black powder bumped the soft lead bullets up to groove diameter. Commonly available bullet molds are accurate with black powder but only with soft lead. For an accurate smokeless powder load you have to have a bullet mold custom made with a nose with parallel sides that tightly fit your Trap Door's land diameter and driving bands that tightly fit its groove diameter. You use hard lead the same as you would use in a cast bullet .30-06 cartridge.

My friend's rifle had a pristine bore. He had North East Industrial (NEI) machine a mold as described above. Cast with hard alloy the bullets still weighted over 500 grains. Off a bench 100 yard groups were similar to good cast bullet .30-06 loads. Using a car odometer to measure the distance the elevation markings on the old sight were very close to where the bullets landed. Firing prone we could ring a 55 gallon drum nearly every shot at 600 yards.

Both of the carbines that relatives loaned me had pitted bores. I used black powder and soft lead cast in molds that were made for modern groove diameters. I only got about 4" groups at 100 yards. My friend's rifle's excellent bore and longer sight radius grouped my black powder loads tighter.

Edit to add: The carbines that were loaned to me were not originally made as carbines. Many rifles were cut shorter either by National Guard Armories or to make them sell better as military surplus. Real original carbines are valuable.

 

[JayFramer]

Yes, I've owned both!

What repro did you have, was it any good?

Thinking of a Pedersoli (Uberti) copy since originals are so expensive to find in good shooting shape.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I own a repro which I got at a decent price on the used-consignment rack at my LGS. It is a blast to shoot. I don't know that I would shoot an original even if I owned one.

 

[rkittine]

In 1970 I bough 12 1873 Trapdoor Springfield infantry models in the original crate and one cavalry model and one officers model, all from an antiques dealer when I was on my honeymoon in Pennsylvania. Wish I still had them. (No not the ex-wife, just the rifles).

 

[.38SuperMan]

I had a very early SN and clean Springfield trApdoor rifle with original bayonets and scabbard but never shot it due to concerns of it not being able to handle modern ammo. I wound up selling it along with much of my collection of military weapons.

 

[Stevie]

I own a Model 1873 rifle(and bayonet)...plus a Carbine. I think the rifle dates to 1881 and the carbine to 1880

They both shoot fine with 'cowboy' level .45-70

 

[6518John]

I carried one up San Juan Hill in 1898.

I have one Pancho Villa captured from George Patton—or that’s what the mexican gentleman told me in El Paso and I know they would never lie to a gringo.