Trapdoor Springfields?
- Thread starter JayFramer
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I have a 1873 Cavalry Carbine (Pre Custer!). Friends of mine have an H&R Officers Model, it shoots real well with Black Powder or Smokeless!
On the H&R's, you would want to below Serial Number 5000, that where the quality drops off.
Ivan
Maybe Iggy will show the trapdoor he put together. Please.
On the H&R's, you would want to below Serial Number 5000, that where the quality drops off.
Ivan
Maybe Iggy will show the trapdoor he put together. Please.
italiansport
Member
I have an original Springfield trapdoor musket and have occasionally shot it. It's a real hoot and perfectly safe if in good condition with modern commercial ammunition.
Jim
Jim
I've got a couple, dont shoot much but they are fun. One thing to remember, the originals cannot handle modern ammo, I load for mine.
Surprisingly accurate out to 100 yards with right ammo.
Surprisingly accurate out to 100 yards with right ammo.
DWalt
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At one time I had two rifles and a carbine. At present I have only one, an 1884 rifle. Surprisingly there are still many original parts available for them.
Bakebfr480
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Yes, I've owned both!
Simson-Suhl
US Veteran
Original trap door black powder only. The H&R rifles probably would do fine with standard smokeless loads.
A note or thought: Shiloh Sharps Rifles are made of modern up to date materials, however, they are for black powder only. Call Shiloh sometime and hear the scream of the wounded panther if you even think about smokeless. Voids everything!!
And no jacked bullets in the originals due to the wear they can cause.
A note or thought: Shiloh Sharps Rifles are made of modern up to date materials, however, they are for black powder only. Call Shiloh sometime and hear the scream of the wounded panther if you even think about smokeless. Voids everything!!
And no jacked bullets in the originals due to the wear they can cause.
gregintenn
Member
I'd like to have a carbine. So far, I've only found rifles priced reasonably. They are longer than a flagpole!
My Grand Dad bought one from Bannermans when they came from Missouri and homesteaded in Wyoming
He thought he might need a gun for Indians and outlaws etc.
He put it in the saddle room in the barn where it remained unfired for 40 years.
When they abandoned the homestead and moved to town my Dad and I were going through the buildings and I found the rifle. It was in sad shape.
I was 4 years old, my Dad put it away in a closet and it was forgotten.
I found it again when I was college, but wasn't in a position to do anything with it. So it remained in the closet until my folks retired to town and my wife and I left LE and moved out to the ranch.
I found the old rifle again. This time I did something with it. I got an unfired rifle barrel to replace the rusted one. I got a sporter stock from Rhinehart-Fajen and replaced the old military stock.
This is the result. I have taken antelope, mule deer, and an elk with it.
It's my favorite rifle.
Cool gun!
Great story!
A true carbine can be worth 2-3 times in value if in good condition and original. Serial number, exact barrel length,saddle ring ,rear sight and butt plate pretty much is the basis on determining true originals.
I held the late Keith Rush in high esteem as the goto guy for anything trapdoor. His collection was amazing but his knowledge far exceeded any other source I know of. Many records still exist regarding issue but info on the exact features are sketchy.
If you have a historical thing going on inside, like any other old firearm, you have to wonder where this rifle was and what did it experience. Those carbines give me a warm fuzzy feeling everytime I pick it up.
Sometimes ya get that Little Big Horn feeling then you have to remember that, some carbines/rifles were actually born as Civil War muskets so that feeling of wonderment can go to a lot of places
BLACKHAWKNJ
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I carried one up San Juan Hill in 1898.
While I have not owned a Trap Door I reloaded for two carbines that were loaned to me and fired a friend's rifle. All of them had their original 19th Century barrels. Typical of original barrels their groove diameters ran from o.463" to 0.468". I read that Italian made modern reproduction Trap Doors had modern 0.458" to 0.459" groove diameters. There is plenty of reloading information in reloading manuals for modern barrels.
There are two ways to assemble cartridges that will be accurate in original barrels. When Trap Doors were new the sloppy barrel manufacture was not important because black powder bumped the soft lead bullets up to groove diameter. Commonly available bullet molds are accurate with black powder but only with soft lead. For an accurate smokeless powder load you have to have a bullet mold custom made with a nose with parallel sides that tightly fit your Trap Door's land diameter and driving bands that tightly fit its groove diameter. You use hard lead the same as you would use in a cast bullet .30-06 cartridge.
My friend's rifle had a pristine bore. He had North East Industrial (NEI) machine a mold as described above. Cast with hard alloy the bullets still weighted over 500 grains. Off a bench 100 yard groups were similar to good cast bullet .30-06 loads. Using a car odometer to measure the distance the elevation markings on the old sight were very close to where the bullets landed. Firing prone we could ring a 55 gallon drum nearly every shot at 600 yards.
Both of the carbines that relatives loaned me had pitted bores. I used black powder and soft lead cast in molds that were made for modern groove diameters. I only got about 4" groups at 100 yards. My friend's rifle's excellent bore and longer sight radius grouped my black powder loads tighter.
Edit to add: The carbines that were loaned to me were not originally made as carbines. Many rifles were cut shorter either by National Guard Armories or to make them sell better as military surplus. Real original carbines are valuable.
There are two ways to assemble cartridges that will be accurate in original barrels. When Trap Doors were new the sloppy barrel manufacture was not important because black powder bumped the soft lead bullets up to groove diameter. Commonly available bullet molds are accurate with black powder but only with soft lead. For an accurate smokeless powder load you have to have a bullet mold custom made with a nose with parallel sides that tightly fit your Trap Door's land diameter and driving bands that tightly fit its groove diameter. You use hard lead the same as you would use in a cast bullet .30-06 cartridge.
My friend's rifle had a pristine bore. He had North East Industrial (NEI) machine a mold as described above. Cast with hard alloy the bullets still weighted over 500 grains. Off a bench 100 yard groups were similar to good cast bullet .30-06 loads. Using a car odometer to measure the distance the elevation markings on the old sight were very close to where the bullets landed. Firing prone we could ring a 55 gallon drum nearly every shot at 600 yards.
Both of the carbines that relatives loaned me had pitted bores. I used black powder and soft lead cast in molds that were made for modern groove diameters. I only got about 4" groups at 100 yards. My friend's rifle's excellent bore and longer sight radius grouped my black powder loads tighter.
Edit to add: The carbines that were loaned to me were not originally made as carbines. Many rifles were cut shorter either by National Guard Armories or to make them sell better as military surplus. Real original carbines are valuable.
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What repro did you have, was it any good?
Thinking of a Pedersoli (Uberti) copy since originals are so expensive to find in good shooting shape.
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I own a repro which I got at a decent price on the used-consignment rack at my LGS. It is a blast to shoot. I don't know that I would shoot an original even if I owned one.
rkittine
Member
In 1970 I bough 12 1873 Trapdoor Springfield infantry models in the original crate and one cavalry model and one officers model, all from an antiques dealer when I was on my honeymoon in Pennsylvania. Wish I still had them. (No not the ex-wife, just the rifles).
.38SuperMan
Member
I had a very early SN and clean Springfield trApdoor rifle with original bayonets and scabbard but never shot it due to concerns of it not being able to handle modern ammo. I wound up selling it along with much of my collection of military weapons.
Stevie
Member
I own a Model 1873 rifle(and bayonet)...plus a Carbine. I think the rifle dates to 1881 and the carbine to 1880
They both shoot fine with 'cowboy' level .45-70
They both shoot fine with 'cowboy' level .45-70
I have one Pancho Villa captured from George Patton—or that’s what the mexican gentleman told me in El Paso and I know they would never lie to a gringo.
DWalt
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It is not true that only black powder can be used for reloading. Reloading manuals are full of smokeless powder recipes that are perfectly safe to use in Trapdoor rifles and carbines, usually faster powders. Pyrodex also works well. I have found mine shoots very well using Pyrodex.
There are also reloading recipes made for use in more modern rifles, and those are too hot for use in Trapdoors.
There are also reloading recipes made for use in more modern rifles, and those are too hot for use in Trapdoors.
V1 Rotate
Member
My Grand Dad bought one from Bannermans when they came from Missouri and homesteaded in Wyoming
He thought he might need a gun for Indians and outlaws etc.
He put it in the saddle room in the barn where it remained unfired for 40 years.
When they abandoned the homestead and moved to town my Dad and I were going through the buildings and I found the rifle. It was in sad shape.
I was 4 years old, my Dad put it away in a closet and it was forgotten.
I found it again when I was in college, but wasn't in a position to do anything with it. So it remained in the closet until my folks retired to town and my wife and I left LE and moved out to the ranch.
I found the old rifle again. This time I did something with it. I got an unfired rifle barrel to replace the rusted one and cut it down a wee mite. Pillar mounted and free floated the barrel. I got a sporter stock from Rhinehart-Fajen and replaced the old military stock.
This is the result. I have taken antelope, mule deer, and an elk with it.
It's my favorite rifle.
Iggy has shown this picture several times and I absolutely never get tired of looking at it. Thanks Iggy!
smoothshooter
Member
You can buy a good original for about what a repro costs.
If there are any bore condition issues, sent it to the widely acclaimed Bobby Hoyt of Freischutz Shop fame for a barrel reline job and it will shoot like a new gun.
The original will have better workmanship and appreciate in value while the pedersoli won't
If there are any bore condition issues, sent it to the widely acclaimed Bobby Hoyt of Freischutz Shop fame for a barrel reline job and it will shoot like a new gun.
The original will have better workmanship and appreciate in value while the pedersoli won't
mmaher94087
Member
Tulsa, Oklahoma, ca. 1958. My father and I would ride the bus into the city center to a pawn shop. There, my father would sort through two wood barrels of old trapdoors and pick the one he liked. When asked about the guns functioning, the owner would grab a round out of another barrel and head to the backroom of the store. The next sound was "Fire in the hole!" quickly followed by the biggest boom the world had ever heard. There was another hole in the floor. After the smoke cleared, the owner would ask my father if that was a good test of the rifle as he handed it to him. I proudly walked back to the buss stop with the rifle over my shoulder so we could ride back home.
spad124
Member
I have an 1873 model infantry rifle built in 1884 that I inherited from my brother. I also have a bayonet and scabbard. Overall it’s in excellent condition and has an excellent bore. One former user marked his name on the but, “ I E Shaw”. He also identified a Kansas regiment, the 22nd, I believe. (I’m not close to the gun right now). I checked with the historian for the Kansas National Guard and he was able to find a Corporal Ira E Shaw of the same regiment as noted on the stock of my gun who was mustered in for the Spanish American War. Researching the unit in 1898, the regiment was mustered in and sent to the DC area for training. Sounds like the Kansas boys put more effort into raising hell in DC than they actually put into military training. The regiment was mustered out and sent home after a couple of months. But it’s great to know the history of the rifle.
Drm50
Member
I have fired several originals all infantry versions and a few sporterized jobs. Trap doors started out as breech loading conversion for Muzzel loader. The originals shouldn't be shot with any thing other than duplication of BP loading. Most cases they do best with lead bullets. Factory loads had be geared to allow using them in the old BP rifles. With
45/70 making a big comeback and all kind of buffalo loads being sold, be careful what you are shoving in it.
45/70 making a big comeback and all kind of buffalo loads being sold, be careful what you are shoving in it.
PALADIN85020
US Veteran
I have a few in my collection -
An 1866 rifle
An 1868 rifle
An 1879 rifle
An 1879 carbine
An 1884 rifle (with ramrod bayonet)
Here's a pic of my Model 1866 (2nd Allin conversion), in .50/70 caliber. I have to load my own ammo for this one and the Model 1868 which followed it.
Here's one of my favorites - an 1879 cavalry carbine.
I've shot all of 'em with moderate smokeless powder loads - it's like holding history in your hands, for sure.
John
An 1866 rifle
An 1868 rifle
An 1879 rifle
An 1879 carbine
An 1884 rifle (with ramrod bayonet)
Here's a pic of my Model 1866 (2nd Allin conversion), in .50/70 caliber. I have to load my own ammo for this one and the Model 1868 which followed it.
Here's one of my favorites - an 1879 cavalry carbine.
I've shot all of 'em with moderate smokeless powder loads - it's like holding history in your hands, for sure.
John
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22lrfan
Member
This is a several year old photo of mine.
Model 1870 .50-70 rifle made in 1870
Model 1884 .45-70 rifle made in 1887
Model 1884 .45-70 carbine made in 1885.
Remington Rolling Block, .43 Spanish made in 1879.
I load black powder ammo for all of them. The Remington has a slip-on recoil pad and an ammo sleeve on it because I had been hunting with it. I periodically see rifles in pawn shops but I haven't seen a carbine in a long time.
Model 1870 .50-70 rifle made in 1870
Model 1884 .45-70 rifle made in 1887
Model 1884 .45-70 carbine made in 1885.
Remington Rolling Block, .43 Spanish made in 1879.
I load black powder ammo for all of them. The Remington has a slip-on recoil pad and an ammo sleeve on it because I had been hunting with it. I periodically see rifles in pawn shops but I haven't seen a carbine in a long time.
Attachments
I have a few in my collection -
An 1866 rifle
An 1868 rifle
An 1879 rifle
An 1879 carbine
An 1884 rifle (with ramrod bayonet)
Here's a pic of my Model 1866 (2nd Allin conversion), in .50/70 caliber. I have to load my own ammo for this one and the Model 1868 which followed it.
That carbine is spectacular .
Here's one of my favorites - an 1879 cavalry carbine.
I've shot all of 'em with moderate smokeless powder loads - it's like holding history in your hands, for sure.
John
That carbine is looks like it was made yesterday.
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