Trigger finger/hand placement revolver

[Sahrpshooter]

Hello,
And yes, this is not really about standard trigger technique to be found on the thousands of websites searching for info (not about how far to put your fingertip over the trigger, angle degree of the upper two phalanges and to not yank etc.).
Searching for this on the internet is frustrating. Results are only about trigger technique, making me feel (a bit) like I am the only one on the world with this basic problem.
Actually it is about making it possible to use a good finger technique on a revolver.

All revolvers I shot with (S&W 617, S&W 686 and Ruger GP100), after cocking the trigger, the trigger is at the wrong place. It is too low and too close to my hand for my trigger finger.
It really sucks shooting this way, holding the grip on the place where the fingers should be (taking into account the finger grooves on the grip).

What works best for me is to lower my hand on the grip. This way I solve the two problems. The trigger is at the perfect height and, lower on the grip, my hand moves a bit away (back) from the trigger, resulting in the right angle for the two upper phalanges of the trigger finger.

I believe that this trick/workaround could help me overall, shooting with soft loads and making the best out of situation with the revoler in hand at that moment.
But when it comes to configuring your own revolver, there must be better ways to deal with this.
With the grip not meant to be hold this low, handling recoil is really bad. The revolver moves a lot after the shot.
This could cost points at matches and could be a bit problematic shooting heavy loads.

In case there is nothing to do about the placement of the trigger (as with a match pistol), only option is to fiddle with the grip.

For example.
Can a grip be lowered? Are there people who fill up the backside of the grip with putty? Are there grips specially made to solve this problem?

What are the options?

 

[bobsguns]

Hello,

Can a grip be lowered? Are there people who fill up the backside of the grip with putty? Are there grips specially made to solve this problem?

What are the options?

This is a problem I've never heard of before.

Grip frames can't be modified without welding. Not a good recourse.

What can be done is change the grips themselves. Given your needs, a larger set of grips might help. I would think target grips might work? Also, Bill Jordan grips are for large hands, if they're still being made?

I would google "target grips" & see where it takes you.

Good luck!

 

[mikerjf]

A trigger shoe with the right shape might help?

 

[murphydog]

I don't think you'll find a revolver or gun/stock combination that will allow your index finger to line up straight behind the trigger. As you noted, this would only be suited for target shooting and light loads, as the bore axis would be higher than normal relative to the hand and recoil recovery more difficult. This does not stop people from shooting revolvers very well.

 

[gwpercle]

Herrett's Stocks ... you draw an outline of your hand on the order and they make the grips to fit your hand ... I have done this for three different S&W handguns ... it works surprisingly well .
Call the nice folks at Herrett's and talk to them about your specific needs , they sould be able to help . The grips they made for me fit like ... a glove !
Check them out at Herrett's Stocks
They make em fit your hnd ... for true !
Gary

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Thanks Bob, yes, I already have a thicker Nill grip in mind. I did not know about the Bill Jordan
grip type. Hopefully I can try one in the near future.

Great Mike, trigger shoe. I really like this idea. This way the hand can stay where it belongs and the discomfort is addressed where it should.
While always cocking by the hammer, the only worry then is perhaps that there should be enough space in the frame for the trigger with the shoe.

Alan thanks, yes, I am going to make that as a goal for my configuration. Prevent the need for low holding, although it feels better, but enlarges the recoil wobble too much.

Thanks guys!

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Herrett's Stocks ...

Ok, super, thanks for the tip!

 

[glenwolde]

Have you ever tried a single action revolver? You might find those more to your liking. Especially with some larger grips.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Have you ever tried a single action revolver? You might find those more to your liking. Especially with some larger grips.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. For me it's hard to imagine what single action would mean for the ultimate trigger position. In Europe it is a bit harder to check other than one size fits all revolvers.
But perhaps for a future project. First there is a 686 on it's way. Thanks!

 

[WR Moore]

Ah, the trigger shoe went out of popularity decades ago, largely for safety reasons. The typical shoe sticks out beyond the sides of the trigger guard and presents a greatly enhanced probability of an unintended discharge.
The claim was that since the surface of the trigger was so much larger, the pressure felt on the finger was less. They add little to the fore & aft dimension.

Also, directions that the trigger press should be straight back DOES NOT mean that the finger is supposed to be on the same horizontal plane as the trigger. It does mean that your finger motion shouldn't apply side pressure to the trigger that may disturb the point of impact.

Many folks find finger grooved grips/stocks to be a bad fit to the hand.

Your English is very good, but one cocks the hammer, not the trigger.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Ah, the trigger shoe went out of popularity decades ago, largely for safety reasons. ...

Thanks for the input. Better to lower my expectations.
I am going to ask the gunsmith and see what he says. Perhaps a more slim shoe can be made.

 

[Pisgah]

Get grips without finger grooves.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I do not fully understand this thread. The Original Post seems clear enough, although it leaves one or two small questions in my mind, but the answers are all over the place. At first glance, I'm not sure that I understand them at all, except for #5.

OP, you have stated rather clearly the classic (original, old, typical, long-standing) problem with S&W service grips, both the original slim ones and the later Magnas. This problem is old enough that Walter Roper has written about and addressed this problem. You are trying to grip the revolver correctly, and the grip isn't there. There SHOULD be some wood (or plastic or rubber or aluminum) to rest on your middle finger while your trigger finger is placed correctly on the trigger. Pachmayr and Mershon and Tyler and now BK have all made a grip adapter which corrects this error in the design of S&W grips, sometimes satisfactorily, sometimes superbly. Roper, and many after him, completely redesigned the grips to position the hand correctly. Most of the best grips are built from measurements of the shooter's hand. ALL of them fill in the grip-adapter area.

My slight puzzlement with your post was that you mentioned two fairly recent S&W revolvers and a GP100, all of which I thought came with grips noticeably improved over the original S&W error. Perhaps the European versions are supplied with different grips, or maybe your hand is a little larger than what the stock grips are designed for.

Post #5 is still your best guide, although I believe that Nill also will make to measurement.

I would never solve a grip problem with a trigger shoe, although maybe that is because I so seldom see a gun as absolutely restricted to target use. Also, you have a serious and common grip problem which is not going to go away with the installation of a trigger shoe, anyway, so you might as well take care of the grip problem first.

Good luck!

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Get grips without finger grooves.

Yes, this is where I am now. It is an approach. What I read between the lines of WR Moore is just deal with the forced angle of the trigger finger.

Nill-Griffe state on the webpage of a thicker grip:
"The thumb rest provides the shooter additional leverage when shooting heavy revolvers and prevents the shooter from having a low hold on the grip."
I like the idea of just shooting with the instrument as it is.
While my main focus is and will be on target/match shooting with a .22 sport pistol, this idea is less good to me. Just holding the grip lower is a quick solution, but not a very good workaround.

 

[AlHunt]

Maybe, it's a grip strength issue. Many years ago I carried a set of spring grip strength appliances in my truck. Just worked them as I was on the road and found it improved my shooting.

No, I couldn't think of a better word than "appliances" ...

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Hi ImprovedModel56Fan,

I already had a grip in mind before starting this topic. It is a rather thick grip and there is only one way (handposition) to hold it:
S&W K/L-Frame round butt stippled finger grooves and thumb rest-SW038

The Smith & Wessons I have shot with have this grip shape:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/179132/988819194/wm_11612152.jpg

The Ruger has this grip shape:
Rubber Grips with Rosewood Inserts Compact

The grip shapes differ a lot, but the trick of holding the grip low, works with both of these (but as stated, with an obvious wobble due to recoil).

My hands are reasonably large, but hands and fingers are a bit thin.
This causes that my hand wraps the grip more (further) than with thicker fingers.
Thank you very much for this insight into grip shapes and lacking material.
This really broadens the picture I have about bigger grip options. The Nill grip probably does not need such an adapter, but for the grips linked above it would probably fill up (for my hand) missing grip material.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Maybe, it's a grip strength issue. Many years ago I carried a set of spring grip strength appliances in my truck. Just worked them as I was on the road and found it improved my shooting.

No, I couldn't think of a better word than "appliances" ...

Yes, I also have given thought to this. But, this more as a pure strength training. Holding a weight with your arm outstretched will not per se make your hand stronger for shooting one handed. Most days of the week I practice dry fire when not going to the range. For me the trigger on revolvers is not at the right place when shooting one handed, but also with two handed shooting.
I don't even have to shoot first to feel that it's not perfect (after cocking).
While not even having shot and holding the revolver with two hands, it can hardly be a strenght issue.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Hi ImprovedModel56Fan,

I already had a grip in mind before starting this topic. It is a rather thick grip and there is only one way (handposition) to hold it:
S&W K/L-Frame round butt stippled finger grooves and thumb rest-SW038

The Smith & Wessons I have shot with have this grip shape:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/179132/988819194/wm_11612152.jpg

The Ruger has this grip shape:
Rubber Grips with Rosewood Inserts Compact

The grip shapes differ a lot, but the trick of holding the grip low, works with both of these (but as stated, with an obvious wobble due to recoil).

My hands are reasonably large, but hands and fingers are a bit thin.
This causes that my hand wraps the grip more (further) than with thicker fingers.
Thank you very much for this insight into grip shapes and lacking material.
This really broadens the picture I have about bigger grip options. The Nill grip probably does not need such an adapter, but for the grips linked above it would probably fill up (for my hand) missing grip material.

Your first link is to factory S&W target grips. S&W was not much more competent at making target grips than they were at making service grips, although there ARE some people who like them.

There is nothing wrong with grips forcing your hand to hold them only one way. In fact, that is a GOOD thing. However, the one way that grips force you to hold the gun should be the one that places your finger on the trigger properly. If they do not do this, they are NOT good grips, regardless of who makes them and who praises them.

The Nill and Ruger grips are not good grips for you because you can move your hand around and choose a lower grip. You are choosing a lower grip in an attempt to get your trigger finger into proper position on the trigger. The grips should FORCE you into a lower position so that your finger falls properly on the trigger.

The Nill illustration seems to imply that it is good that the thumb rest keeps you from taking a lower position. This is false. While they believe that a higher position is better because it results in a shorter torque arm when the revolver recoils, they are wrong. Their job is to get your finger right on the trigger, and fill in the spaces between your hand and the grip. In your experience, the increased recoil of a lower grip is not primarily from a lengthened torque arm, but from ill-fitting grips when you grip the gun the best you can to get your finger on the trigger.

Pachmayr Presentation grips, which used to be made in Large and Small, and perhaps still are, are classic Roper grips, and may fit your hand. They are also inexpensive. Other possibilities are Hogues, or other Pachmayrs.

 

[AlHunt]

Yes, I also have given thought to this. But, this more as a pure strength training. Holding a weight with your arm outstretched will not per se make your hand stronger for shooting one handed. Most days of the week I practice dry fire when not going to the range. For me the trigger on revolvers is not at the right place when shooting one handed, but also with two handed shooting.
I don't even have to shoot first to feel that it's not perfect (after cocking).
While not even having shot and holding the revolver with two hands, it can hardly be a strenght issue.

I hear what you're saying and I understand you're focused on the mechanics. Attached is a pic of what I'm referring to as a training device, if you decide to take a run at it. I'd hold it both right side up and upside down.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Your first link is to factory S&W target grips. S&W was not much more competent at making target grips than they were at making service grips, although there ARE some people who like them.

There is nothing wrong with grips forcing your hand to hold them only one way. In fact, that is a GOOD thing. However, the one way that grips force you to hold the gun should be the one that places your finger on the trigger properly. If they do not do this, they are NOT good grips, regardless of who makes them and who praises them.

The Nill and Ruger grips are not good grips for you because you can move your hand around and choose a lower grip. You are choosing a lower grip in an attempt to get your trigger finger into proper position on the trigger. The grips should FORCE you into a lower position so that your finger falls properly on the trigger.

The Nill illustration seems to imply that it is good that the thumb rest keeps you from taking a lower position. This is false. While they believe that a higher position is better because it results in a shorter torque arm when the revolver recoils, they are wrong. Their job is to get your finger right on the trigger, and fill in the spaces between your hand and the grip. In your experience, the increased recoil of a lower grip is not primarily from a lengthened torque arm, but from ill-fitting grips when you grip the gun the best you can to get your finger on the trigger.

Pachmayr Presentation grips, which used to be made in Large and Small, and perhaps still are, are classic Roper grips, and may fit your hand. They are also inexpensive. Other possibilities are Hogues, or other Pachmayrs.

Ok, but I think these S&W grips are the coolest, with the classic look. No doubt I'd wanted one of these if I wasn't searching for a better hold.

Strange that the Nill grip makes a lower grip possible. I'd say with these finger grooves you'd probably not want to do that.
What I think it is good for (for me) is that it has more body to wrap my hand around, resulting in a better trigger distance.

Sorry for my noviceness, but with Roper is it so that you can see if the grip is good on a photo?
For example, do you mean that with the "wrong" grip the middlefinger is somewhere between 1/3th till the middle of the trigger surrounding and that the "good" grip forces the middlefinger to a height at 2/3th of the height?

Bad (middlefinger 1/3 from top trigger surrounding):
https://brunk-fws-images.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/website/auctions/items/full/3979804_1.jpg

Good (perhaps too extreme example with middlefinger almost at bottom trigger surrounding):
https://images.gunsinternational.com/listings_sub/acc_113596/gi_101308409/SMITH-and-WESSON-686-STAINLESS-8-3-8inch-357-MAG-6-SHOT-PACHMAYR-GRIPS-NO-BOX_101308409_113596_84E76093B3B9D7FA.jpg

The revolver I bought has this grip at the moment:
K or L Sq. Butt Pau Ferro

With the middlefinger position in mind this would also be a grip that will force the fingers to the right height?