Trigger finger/hand placement revolver

[Sahrpshooter]

I hear what you're saying and I understand you're focused on the mechanics. Attached is a pic of what I'm referring to as a training device, if you decide to take a run at it. I'd hold it both right side up and upside down.

Yes, I am going for it. Thanks and great idea to flip the device!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I myself am not competent to tell from a photo whether a particular set of grips will fit even me. About fitting others I know even less.

Although I suspect that there is some relation between middle-finger fit and trigger-finger fit, it is pretty much the trigger-finger fit that is the most important. This generally not judged by looking at photos, but by trying the grip.

That said, I pretty much agree with your guesses (or experience) with the three photos. However, again, it is the trigger finger that counts. For me, the Pachmayr grips that you show are too big, even though the relation to the trigger guard may be acceptable. For me, the Hogues appear correct, and may well BE correct, FOR ME. For you, I don't know.

You should be able to get the middle of the third joint of your trigger finger on the trigger, with the second and third joints perpendicular to the first joint, which should not be touching the grip or the frame. Ordinarily, you can tell whether this is so only by picking up the revolver in your hand. This is why some of us have a lot more grips than guns.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Hello,
And yes, this is not really about standard trigger technique to be found on the thousands of websites searching for info (not about how far to put your fingertip over the trigger, angle degree of the upper two phalanges and to not yank etc.).
Searching for this on the internet is frustrating. Results are only about trigger technique, making me feel (a bit) like I am the only one on the world with this basic problem.
Actually it is about making it possible to use a good finger technique on a revolver.

All revolvers I shot with (S&W 617, S&W 686 and Ruger GP100), after cocking the trigger, the trigger is at the wrong place. It is too low and too close to my hand for my trigger finger.
It really sucks shooting this way, holding the grip on the place where the fingers should be (taking into account the finger grooves on the grip).

What works best for me is to lower my hand on the grip. This way I solve the two problems. The trigger is at the perfect height and, lower on the grip, my hand moves a bit away (back) from the trigger, resulting in the right angle for the two upper phalanges of the trigger finger.

I believe that this trick/workaround could help me overall, shooting with soft loads and making the best out of situation with the revoler in hand at that moment.
But when it comes to configuring your own revolver, there must be better ways to deal with this.
With the grip not meant to be hold this low, handling recoil is really bad. The revolver moves a lot after the shot.
This could cost points at matches and could be a bit problematic shooting heavy loads.

In case there is nothing to do about the placement of the trigger (as with a match pistol), only option is to fiddle with the grip.

For example.
Can a grip be lowered? Are there people who fill up the backside of the grip with putty? Are there grips specially made to solve this problem?

What are the options?

Can you post a picture in profile from both sides showing your hand gripping one of the revolvers you shoot, with your finger on the trigger? Do you have larger than usual or smaller than usual hands? The gun's frame size will have a lot to do with how your hand fits and how well the trigger finger aligns with the trigger. The guns you mention are medium frame guns.

 

[BE Mike]

If it's an older S&W revolver, you might try finding a target trigger to replace the one you have. They are about 1/2" wide. You also probably want custom grips. You might want to check these out. Revolvers - Precision Target Pistol Grips

 

[Sahrpshooter]

I myself am not competent to tell from a photo whether a particular set of grips will fit even me. About fitting others I know even less.

Although I suspect that there is some relation between middle-finger fit and trigger-finger fit, it is pretty much the trigger-finger fit that is the most important. This generally not judged by looking at photos, but by trying the grip.

That said, I pretty much agree with your guesses (or experience) with the three photos. However, again, it is the trigger finger that counts. For me, the Pachmayr grips that you show are too big, even though the relation to the trigger guard may be acceptable. For me, the Hogues appear correct, and may well BE correct, FOR ME. For you, I don't know.

You should be able to get the middle of the third joint of your trigger finger on the trigger, with the second and third joints perpendicular to the first joint, which should not be touching the grip or the frame. Ordinarily, you can tell whether this is so only by picking up the revolver in your hand. This is why some of us have a lot more grips than guns.

Ok, I think my view on revolver grips has improved enormous. Thanks a lot for the help!

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Can you post a picture in profile from both sides showing your hand gripping one of the revolvers you shoot, with your finger on the trigger? Do you have larger than usual or smaller than usual hands? The gun's frame size will have a lot to do with how your hand fits and how well the trigger finger aligns with the trigger. The guns you mention are medium frame guns.

Yes, that is possible. But first I have to take pictures at the club. In a few days I will be there.
Sadly it will take a few months before I can pick up the revolver I bought, due to legislation.

My hands are large and not thick. As mentioned above my hand wraps too much around the grip so that the trigger has to be further away from the grip. For example. I have a sport pistol. It was not possible to place the trigger far enough from the grip. A shooter who worked on the grip just reversed the pin on which the trigger is attached so that the thicker end was no longer in the way.
Perhaps a picture makes it a bit more clear what I meant, but it is offtopic:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/99/01/d2990197273624b70076dfc4424cd92c.jpg

 

[Sahrpshooter]

If it's an older S&W revolver, you might try finding a target trigger to replace the one you have. They are about 1/2" wide. You also probably want custom grips. You might want to check these out. Revolvers - Precision Target Pistol Grips

Yes, the revolver I've bought is a dash 3.
I believe I already asked the gun smith if the trigger can be replaced.
Answer was no, if I rember correct. This was within the context of reducing trigger pull weight.
Sadly this is way to technical for me. And I don't think the gunsmith will start an internet search/study for an alternative trigger (no longer being made?).

Although I have a match pistol and my main focus will stay on shooting with that pistol. Match grips for a revolver is not really my thing. I really like the classic revolver look.
Perhaps a total bad example. But a few previous posts the position of the middlefinger was mentioned in relation to the indexfinger.
With the grip from this photo to me it seems that the height of the trigger finger tip must be somewhere on the height of the ring finger. It is strange, me thinking I am understanding things a bit better.
https://www.precisiontargetpistolgrips.com/uploads/7/5/9/2/75920835/revolver-left_orig.jpg

 

[LVSteve]

I think I understand the OP's problem. I have thin hands with long fingers, not quite in the Nosferatu class, but getting there. I too find that the grips on many guns leave my trigger finger in a non-optimal place.

 

[Kasian]

I hear what you're saying and I understand you're focused on the mechanics. Attached is a pic of what I'm referring to as a training device, if you decide to take a run at it. I'd hold it both right side up and upside down.

Where it is socially not acceptable - squeeze tennis ball. I used to put them in a pocket outside tennis stadium in Queens while walking the dog. They "shoot" over the fence a lot.

 

[Imissedagain]

Please clarify.
Is your goal to compete in SA or DA mode, or both?
One hand or two?
Pic to show the width, relative to a Smith X Frame, with a more tradition shape and the trigger in SA.
Compared to the OEM Hogues, those stocks put my hand about 3/8" higher up.
Less rotation and ability to cock the hammer, without shifting the gun in my hand.
Trigger position is a given, and no problems with reaching the trigger in DA or SA.

Bare hand(s) or glove(s), are another consideration.

 

[Imissedagain]

I use a fixture like this for inletting and perimeter shape.
Then file to whatever shape needed, with consideration for
bare hands, gloves, one hand or two.
There is a difference in width, from the earlier picture,
for that set of stocks.
I changed the butt stock pad on one of my 6920s, to make the LOP fit, about 5/8" longer, and a pistol grip was made to ease the bend in my wrist, with a thumb rest.
Made the pistol grip back in '79, and it is still used on newer ARs.

 

[Matt_X]

As you can see, there are different opinions as to what is optimal and this is partially due to different objectives as well as differences in the revolvers.

I would begin with the wood Hogue stocks that are on your 686.

These have an exposed backstrap (back of the revolver grip frame) and very pronounced finger grooves.

In this thread you can see a variety of stocks, including factory target stocks.

S&W 686-3
The factory targets also have an exposed backstrap, but allow the hand to be placed slightly higher than the Hogues pictured above. The very first post shows a set of stocks, probably Pachmayr's that cover the backstrap.

Single action preferences sometimes are a bit different than double-action work. Even more so for shooting timed in single action.


I know there is some debate on whether off-hand (one hand) grasp should be different than two hand. Regardless I think there is merit in the view that when using two hands, it is best for the support hand to be in direct contact with the wood (or rubber). This is difficult with small frame revolvers but is pretty easy with the mid-frame, depending on the size of your hands, etc.


Getting back to the choices, in my experience sometimes wider or thicker stocks/grips do not feel as natural or comfortable, but end up working better. Sometimes they don't. Dry fire is excellent to observe how much you are moving the sights. Unfortunately it does not help us judge the control of muzzle rise and recoil. But we can at generally observe how much contact our hands are making, which then will help us know whatt we might want to change, if anything. With the .38 Spl and .357 Magnum there will be muzzle rise - and it will effect point of impact elevation.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-recoil-affects-handgun-accuracy/


I beleive all of the S&W Target Stocks have an exposed backstrap.

https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-r...rget-grip-size-differences.html#post142126538

Here's Massad Ayoob discussing the thumb curled down position for DA shooting.
https://youtu.be/XVvUHsFdHK4?si=XACi3XEu_Jfk3Jfu&t=365
Not saying you should do this, but something to consider trying when shooting centerfire revolver.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

I think I understand the OP's problem. I have thin hands with long fingers, not quite in the Nosferatu class, but getting there. I too find that the grips on many guns leave my trigger finger in a non-optimal place.

Thanks Steve, of course I wish you all the best. But for me it's good to read that more people are in the same boat.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Please clarify.
Is your goal to compete in SA or DA mode, or both?
One hand or two?
Pic to show the width, relative to a Smith X Frame, with a more tradition shape and the trigger in SA.
Compared to the OEM Hogues, those stocks put my hand about 3/8" higher up.
Less rotation and ability to cock the hammer, without shifting the gun in my hand.
Trigger position is a given, and no problems with reaching the trigger in DA or SA.

Bare hand(s) or glove(s), are another consideration.

I am not interested in double action shooting. Last time I have done that was with cowboys and uh... thieves. I believe with a plastic revolver.
For now I am only shooting two handed. I think it's nice to develop my skills with two techniques (1 and 2 handed).

Gloves is a great idea, but very low on my option list. For now it only makes the situation more complicated. Shooting with gloves, without gloves, shooting with new gloves, the olds gloves etc.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

I use a fixture like this for inletting and perimeter shape.
Then file to whatever shape needed, with consideration for
bare hands, gloves, one hand or two.
There is a difference in width, from the earlier picture,
for that set of stocks.
I changed the butt stock pad on one of my 6920s, to make the LOP fit, about 5/8" longer, and a pistol grip was made to ease the bend in my wrist, with a thumb rest.
Made the pistol grip back in '79, and it is still used on newer ARs.

Aha, looking good! Sadly I'm not that handy for making my own parts. Luckily there are a lot of options in scope thanks to all ideas.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

As you can see, there are different opinions as to what is optimal and this is partially due to different objectives as well as differences in the revolvers.

Thanks a lot for all the info.

I plan/hope on keeping the revolver a long time so I attempt to get it in the (for me) best state.
It is a lot of money, but I am going for the Nill grip.
Although the Hogue grip looks like it could give the best from both worlds. It's a bit of an assumption, but it is perhaps not forcing the shooting hand as far down as for example the Pachmayr.
The Hogue grip on the revolver I bought is the original I think. While it for sure is in a good shape. I don't think it's the most beautiful grip.

The Nill grip I already had in my hand as with the Hogue. Both grips feel good. Sadly I don't remember I felt the grip and trigger position while cocked.
In case it does not work out, I will put the Hogue grip back on.
If both options don't work and a thicker and lower grip is needed I'll try out the Pachmayr.

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Where it is socially not acceptable - squeeze tennis ball. I used to put them in a pocket outside tennis stadium in Queens while walking the dog. They "shoot" over the fence a lot.

Good point. It looks better at the office with a tennis ball than with a fitness instrument. Thanks!

 

[Matt_X]

Even more to the point then. My suggestion then continues that you take a step by step approach beginning with what you already own. I don't like finger grooves myself sine they never fit my hand, but when I've them, I have tried them.


The Pachmayer shown will move the back of your hand further from the trigger since it covers the backstrap. If that is what you determine may be needed, Pachmayers are mass produced and generally less expense new or used than custom grips or those the seller beleives had collectible value.


I'm not an expert but I find it highly unlikely S&W shipped a revolver with anything but S&W marked stocks. The wood stocks all have the medallion.


Interestingly the grip and stock design evolved to better match the needs of aimed double action, and then the use of a support hand. At least with the US military and police revolver training through the 1940s empahsized single action and a grip which allowed rapid recocking was part of the qualification training.

Thanks a lot for all the info.

I plan/hope on keeping the revolver a long time so I attempt to get it in the (for me) best state.
It is a lot of money, but I am going for the Nill grip.
Although the Hogue grip looks like it could give the best from both worlds. It's a bit of an assumption, but it is perhaps not forcing the shooting hand as far down as for example the Pachmayr.
The Hogue grip on the revolver I bought is the original I think. While it for sure is in a good shape. I don't think it's the most beautiful grip.

The Nill grip I already had in my hand as with the Hogue. Both grips feel good. Sadly I don't remember I felt the grip and trigger position while cocked.
In case it does not work out, I will put the Hogue grip back on.
If both options don't work and a thicker and lower grip is needed I'll try out the Pachmayr.

 

[Matt_X]

I don't know the resale value of the Hogues. If its just the front that doesn't work for you, then the fingers slots and filler behind the trigger guard can be modified to custom fit your hand.


You would have something like a Fuzzy Farrant if you wanted and had some woodworker to help.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-h...a-grips-has-hidden-issue.html?highlight=fuzzy

 

[Sahrpshooter]

Even more to the point then. My suggestion then continues that you take a step by step approach beginning with what you already own. I don't like finger grooves myself sine they never fit my hand, but when I've them, I have tried them.


The Pachmayer shown will move the back of your hand further from the trigger since it covers the backstrap. If that is what you determine may be needed, Pachmayers are mass produced and generally less expense new or used than custom grips or those the seller beleives had collectible value.


I'm not an expert but I find it highly unlikely S&W shipped a revolver with anything but S&W marked stocks. The wood stocks all have the medallion.


Interestingly the grip and stock design evolved to better match the needs of aimed double action, and then the use of a support hand. At least with the US military and police revolver training through the 1940s empahsized single action and a grip which allowed rapid recocking was part of the qualification training.

Well, next stop for the revolver is the gunsmith. Sadly it will stay there for a few months, waiting for my permit upgrade.
I felt the grooves and those were nice at that moment. But you have a point. The grip of my match pistol is adjusted by hand to my hand and still I am a bit struggling with the grooves. While the revolver will be at the gunsmith, this encourages the idea of not going step by step.

Those Nill grips also have a closed back, so I assume they will fill up some space there too.

It looks like nowadays those Target Champions are sold with a S&W marked grip. Which could also come from not S&W plants I think, not that that is that much important.
Just look with your favorite search engine for Target Champion photos. I think it shows how a lot of Smith & Wessons were shipped to Europe the last decades assuming S&W stamped grips.

To me, it is likely Smith & Wesson shipped revolvers (686's for example), without Smith & Wesson grips.
There is this story that frames were delivered to some place in Germany where barrels were manually combined with frames. I think they mainly uglied up the revolvers and put a more sporty grip on the revolvers.

The little proof I can find for current models now is perhaps this page offering gripless Smith & Wessons:

Buy SMITH&WESSON 686 6 Target Champion Revolver | Triebel Online

I think also that Smith & Wesson grips have improved. Probably the intention with the really traditional grips never was to let the middle finger be able to better carry the revolvers weight. The more sport style revolvers also force the middle finger a bit lower and make a better weight carry for the middle finger possible (not only contact with the inside but also with the side, which should be top side in contact with the frame or grip I think.