I'd suggest you install the Apex parts and then revisit that. It would be nice if M&P came that way from S&W, but it doesn't. Fortunately, folks (like Apex) have figured out how to improve the function. If you still don't like it afterwards, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to recover your investment. Just a thought.
Trigger Pull for a Duty/Carry Weapon
- Thread starter Halc
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I'd suggest you install the Apex parts and then revisit that. It would be nice if M&P came that way from S&W, but it doesn't. Fortunately, folks (like Apex) have figured out how to improve the function. If you still don't like it afterwards, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to recover your investment. Just a thought.
Different strokes for different folks. I shoot my stock M&P 9c just about the same as my M&P pro.
Didn't like the XD I shot at all.
walkin' trails
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Everyone who answered that messing with the trigger is a potential disaster is right. i use to and never had a mishap, but realized that its better to learn to shoot them than tinker with them. I installed 3.5s in Glocks with no imptovements in my shooting. I just jerked the trigger faster is all. i started paying attention to the fundamentals, ie front sight and trigger press, and saw my hits going where I wanted them. Training out-performs tinkering. I do not care for the Sig 228, but after 5000rounds expended in an academy session, I managed the gun well in steel competetion to smoke an instructor with a tricked out G17 and ISPC experience. I carried Glocks for a lot of years out of preference and got accustomed to a 5.5 lb trigger. My M&P 45 with its factory trigger and a lot of dryfiring and range time is comfortable for me. I do have three K-frame revolvers with trigger job, but they were done to bring the pull down to 7.5 - 8 lbs - same range as an M&P or a Glock NY1. Anyway I dont carry them anymkre and probably never will. If you shoot better with an XD, thats what you should carry. Otherwise spend your money taking a class that requres you to expend a good 1000 round over the course of the week with quality instruction. If its all about triggers, check out FNH's new FNS 9 and 40 striker fired pistols. They have the best trigger for a plastic striker fired gun I've seen to date. Very crisp.
StatesRightist
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FLK--thank you for your expertise and experience based on watching TV, did you sleep in a Holiday Inn as well? What's next, Quantum Mechanics?
Good job on the reading comprehension too, skipping right over the differences between civil and criminal court burden of proof, the fact experts testify without you opening your mouth etc...and you are right, all the experts are wrong, a jury's opinion of you never makes a difference. Just keep going like you are, you'll be just fine.
You know it all, so I won't bother to respond to you again, as a matter of fact, I'm sure you know what I would say anyway.
Good job on the reading comprehension too, skipping right over the differences between civil and criminal court burden of proof, the fact experts testify without you opening your mouth etc...and you are right, all the experts are wrong, a jury's opinion of you never makes a difference. Just keep going like you are, you'll be just fine.
You know it all, so I won't bother to respond to you again, as a matter of fact, I'm sure you know what I would say anyway.
So how many shootouts have you been in? Sorry but I respectfully disagree. When definite peril has been identified I want as few a things to do as possible to defend mine and fumbling for the trigger while crapping in my pants is too much to do. That's why you carry something like My SP. The heavy DA pull means that you shoot when intended. With a light trigger your scenario could cause you to find the trigger and pull it due to adrenaline.
Now if peril hasn't been identified my finger is down the side and on the guard in front of the trigger.
Rangel
Member
I have both XDm and M&P pistols and yes the XDm trigger is a bit smoother, with shorter reset, but my particular M&P's trigger is just fine. I said 'my particular M&P' because there's been some variation in trigger feel from one M&P to another and more recent ones seem to be smoother, with less grittiness, although by and large they've always been better than most guns in their price category IMO.
I have a S&W Bodyguard 380 that has about a 14 pound trigger and with my large hands, I'm just about scratching my nose by the time it fires--the pull's realllly long. But I wouldn't change it, despite my world class gunsmith wanting me to. Why? Because it's mainly in my front pocket when I'm dressed up and I have a long key chain with several keys on it in that pocket sometimes. I won't test it, but I bet I could pull that gun out by the key chain and it wouldn't fire. If I'm in a remotely unsafe place (driving in the city or walking from a nice restaurant to our car for example) my keys won't be in the same pocket. Regardless, if I have to draw that gun and shoot under duress, there won't be any measurable difference in how long it takes me to draw back and engage that trigger, whether it's a 2 or 14 pound trigger. When your adrenaline's pumping, instinct and hopefully sound training sets in and you're going to shoot when necessary--it's very different than when you're on the range, trying to unload a magazine quickly and shoot tight groups.
I have a S&W Bodyguard 380 that has about a 14 pound trigger and with my large hands, I'm just about scratching my nose by the time it fires--the pull's realllly long. But I wouldn't change it, despite my world class gunsmith wanting me to. Why? Because it's mainly in my front pocket when I'm dressed up and I have a long key chain with several keys on it in that pocket sometimes. I won't test it, but I bet I could pull that gun out by the key chain and it wouldn't fire. If I'm in a remotely unsafe place (driving in the city or walking from a nice restaurant to our car for example) my keys won't be in the same pocket. Regardless, if I have to draw that gun and shoot under duress, there won't be any measurable difference in how long it takes me to draw back and engage that trigger, whether it's a 2 or 14 pound trigger. When your adrenaline's pumping, instinct and hopefully sound training sets in and you're going to shoot when necessary--it's very different than when you're on the range, trying to unload a magazine quickly and shoot tight groups.
Rainman61
Member
The gun in the shooting won't be in your posession. Trigger pull gauges are cheap for the DA and PD to use.
Rangel
Member
PLEASE don't put anything in a pocket with a weapon.
Yea, I'll admit--even with a pocket holster, which I do use--you're still right--it's NOT a good thing to do.....
stainless1911
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They can gauge the pull all they want to. It wont turn a clean shoot into a crime. If it was within the self defense act, it doesnt matter if you have a 3 pound pull, a 12 pound pull, or hit the guy with a 12 pound hammer.
Many believe (myself included) that any tampering with a gun can and will be brought up in a court of law by a prosecutor looking to hang someone and make a name for himself.
He will try to convince the jury that you were looking for trouble, that you had your gun made super sensitive and quick to fire. You rolled your own, you carved 'death to commies' on your grips, whatever.
One great point I read (may have been Massad, not sure) is in a civil case, you will be asked how many times you fired etc. There is a fantastic chance that you will not be sure. A lightened trigger may lead to the jury believing you 'accidently' fired the last shot that killed the perp.
Then there was something about an accidental shooting and insurance coverage that I don't quite remember (help me out here guys!). What I remember is that if you needed to defend yourself, you want the jury to believe that every shot was a necessary shot to stop the threat. If there is a chance that the gun discharged one extra time, and you have a trigger lighter than the factory engineers determined was a safe and usual trigger pull, you are in a deep hole and fighting your way out....
In the end you gotta do what you think is right, and if you ever need to put a man down I hope everything works out for you.
machz1
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sorry, but you can take the 5th on any question that may incriminate you. not only that but last i knew you were not required to testify on your behalf to begin with.
stainless1911
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The prosecutor will try anything in the book, I agree.
machz1
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to be fair, so will defense. justice is not about right and wrong, its about who can argue better.
1fly2ty
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When all the dust settles here, the old addage "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" still wins the argument! Just make sure the other guy in the fight never gets to testify!
Remember Bernard Goetz in the N.Y. when he only wounded his attackers!
Remember Bernard Goetz in the N.Y. when he only wounded his attackers!
BklynE
Member
I'm not a LEO, and I don't even carry. In fact, I'm fairly new to this world (just got my first a few weeks ago... an MP .45). Assuming that 'justice' as has been said is about what can be proven more than what may be true, and or may be dependant on who can argue better, then why give the opposition another tool to use against you? Take a chance that they have a better lawyer than you do.
A friend of mine was teaching me to shoot with a Sig that had a 4.5 lb trigger pull and I got very comfortable with that. I decided on buying a MP .45 because of how it felt in my hand. When I got it a few weeks ago, I was quite discouraged after putting the first 150 rounds through it because I was all over the place. I thought I picked the wrong gun. My friend tried it and said I just had to get used to the heavy trigger pull. I have been doing some dry firing, and have put a few more hundred rounds through it since and am starting to get the feel for it and am enjoying it very much. The point being, if a newbie such as myself can get used to it, I'm sure a seasoned pro can. Why take the chance of modifying a weapon and leaving justice in the hands of lawyers? From all the research I've been doing regarding gun ownership (the castle doctrine, carrying, traveling with, shipping, etc...) that's one of the first things a prosecutor looks for in a shooting. How do you know your lawyer is better than theirs? You willing to take that chance?
A friend of mine was teaching me to shoot with a Sig that had a 4.5 lb trigger pull and I got very comfortable with that. I decided on buying a MP .45 because of how it felt in my hand. When I got it a few weeks ago, I was quite discouraged after putting the first 150 rounds through it because I was all over the place. I thought I picked the wrong gun. My friend tried it and said I just had to get used to the heavy trigger pull. I have been doing some dry firing, and have put a few more hundred rounds through it since and am starting to get the feel for it and am enjoying it very much. The point being, if a newbie such as myself can get used to it, I'm sure a seasoned pro can. Why take the chance of modifying a weapon and leaving justice in the hands of lawyers? From all the research I've been doing regarding gun ownership (the castle doctrine, carrying, traveling with, shipping, etc...) that's one of the first things a prosecutor looks for in a shooting. How do you know your lawyer is better than theirs? You willing to take that chance?
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stainless1911
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Part of the responsibility in the right to carry a gun, is being able to place your shots accurately. If reloading or an upgraded part helps you do that, then that is what you should do.
They dont make you more guilty of speeding in a porsche than a prius.
They dont make you more guilty of speeding in a porsche than a prius.
Well, sorta, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, it's not exactly allowed to do it question by question. If the defendant chooses to testify on his behalf (optional) then does not submit to cross examination (takes the 5th), the entire testimony can be tossed out.
In other words, you can choose to testify or not, but if you testify, you have to answer legit questions. Strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who specializes in criminal law in the jurisdiction of interest. IANAL Rules in civil suits are different, and it may not be possible to avoid testifying.
A recent case in OK involving a pharmacist repeatedly shooting a downed robber (after taking time to get another gun) resulted in the defendant choosing NOT to testify after the security tape was shown to the jury. He is now in state prison serving his sentence for murder.
There was a civil suit filed also.
machz1
Member
i saw that video and he deserved to be tried and imprisoned. he went from self defense to murder, plain as day. and it didnt happen exactly like you said, not only was the perp down, he was face down on the floor with gunshot wounds, the pharmacist went OUTSIDE after the other perp, came back in, grabbed another gun and proceeded to shoot the already down and wounded perp IN THE BACK multiple times..
Given the graphic and horrific nature of that security tape, I never understood why the defendant demanded a jury trial when it became clear that the prosecution was cleared to use the tape. Certainly the jury showed him not the least bit of sympathy and a guilty plea might have gotten him a lighter sentence before a judge? I listened to the entire trial and thought the defense presented was l-a-m-e trying to justify it.
Just my personal opinion, "I made a horrible mistake in the heat of the moment and I'm profoundly sorry" with a plea to manslaughter would have been more realistic.
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machz1
Member
ya im no expert but you know the poor guy was jacked up on adrenaline, probably in shock and suffering PTSD and just made a poor choice. i agree with you 100%, when you screw up, admit it, make sure your genuine and take your lumps. painful as it may be ill bet he would have gotten much less.
Rangel
Member
Sure you can plead the 5th amendment. The jury and Judge are also free to wonder why you're afraid to testify and what you possibly might be hiding from them.
A lawyer is free to talk volumes about a lightened trigger, accusing you of having an 'itchy finger' really 'wanting to shoot someone' and basically making you out to be an over zealous, not safe for the streets kind of person. They may even try and accuse you of being racist at the same time.
How convincing the lawyer is will effect the outcome, but if your gun's trigger was as it came from the factory, none of the above would likely be taking place.
There are plenty of guns--albiet usually more expensive guns, that you can order with very light triggers, if you really have to have that sort of thing. Having an unmodified 'factory stock' gun in a shooting would pretty much avoid the possible hassles described above.
A lawyer is free to talk volumes about a lightened trigger, accusing you of having an 'itchy finger' really 'wanting to shoot someone' and basically making you out to be an over zealous, not safe for the streets kind of person. They may even try and accuse you of being racist at the same time.
How convincing the lawyer is will effect the outcome, but if your gun's trigger was as it came from the factory, none of the above would likely be taking place.
There are plenty of guns--albiet usually more expensive guns, that you can order with very light triggers, if you really have to have that sort of thing. Having an unmodified 'factory stock' gun in a shooting would pretty much avoid the possible hassles described above.
StatesRightist
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You are right of course, but these experts with absolutely no real world knowledge or experience and mall ninja acquired skills know everything; after all they watch Perry Mason reruns and stay in Holiday Inns. You and I are just wasting our time trying to help them, they know it all. Save your time and energy.
Keep your trigger stock, or possibly lose your home
Night sights, more comfortable handle, better texture grip, all OK, try telling a 75 year old woman sequestered in a jury room away from her cats for a week why a 35 year old cop couldn't pull the standard trigger that 15000 other cops use, your lose. And forget about anything anything concerning rounds that are not dept issue . Your chief will love being on tv saying " we are looking into ". He will be the hero, you will wait for months, maybe years til it behooves department to settle case and leave you nowhere. Again, my free advice take it for what it's worth
Night sights, more comfortable handle, better texture grip, all OK, try telling a 75 year old woman sequestered in a jury room away from her cats for a week why a 35 year old cop couldn't pull the standard trigger that 15000 other cops use, your lose. And forget about anything anything concerning rounds that are not dept issue . Your chief will love being on tv saying " we are looking into ". He will be the hero, you will wait for months, maybe years til it behooves department to settle case and leave you nowhere. Again, my free advice take it for what it's worth
flkinganuthin
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Umm.. if you are on trial for any reason, and you take the stand, what you are suppose to do is fire your lawyer for letting you do so..
Honest to God, did you ever see any of these real life big cases lately where the defendant took the stand? HELL NO! You are innocent until proven guilty in this country, in case you are unaware. They have to PROVE, as in factual evidence beyond doubt that you did something wrong; not you have to prove you are innocent. Therefore if you are on trial, you dont say sh%&!
You don't go to prison because some prosecutor makes some hearsay opinion and his personal views become some sort of evidence. If it is that way, then it's time for a revolution back to justice and liberty.
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flkinganuthin
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I'm willing to bet it was the video that did him in, not the choice of silence.
myanof
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It's funny you mention this because I fall right into this category also. I am a longtime 1911 shooter (4# crisp trigger pull), and also grew up shooting revolvers. Many days I carry a 340PD in my pocket, and am very proficient out to 15 yds.
I bit the bullet and bought a M&P 45C ,and began asking the same questions about what to do with the trigger. After a lot of research, I took the advice of many who said just shoot the heck out of the new gun and the trigger will be fine.
I am now at the point, after about 6 months, where I can shoot my 45C as well as my full size 1911 from 0-15 yds in a defensive situation. I never thought I would say these words.
I'm still playing with the gun, but I have so much confidence in this 45C that I will probably leave the trigger alone and just carry the gun the way it is now.
stainless1911
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What if you never planned on carrying the gun with an improved safety system, but for one reason or another, you decided to carry it on the day you needed to use it.
Several reasons could bring this about. The gun is a safe queen, not all beat up, and that day, you wanted to dress up for a special occasion. Your EDC is in the shop, who knows? You werent planning a massacre because of your light trigger.
BTW, if you think a trigger will get you into trouble, you should just carry FMJ. or better yet, subsonic frangible rounds. Better not carry a .45 either, most departments now carry .40, you dont want too big of a gun. You might not want to carry anything bigger than a 9mm. the military carries those now, and if you carry what a soldier carries, you are just trying to be one, looking for a war.
Several reasons could bring this about. The gun is a safe queen, not all beat up, and that day, you wanted to dress up for a special occasion. Your EDC is in the shop, who knows? You werent planning a massacre because of your light trigger.
BTW, if you think a trigger will get you into trouble, you should just carry FMJ. or better yet, subsonic frangible rounds. Better not carry a .45 either, most departments now carry .40, you dont want too big of a gun. You might not want to carry anything bigger than a 9mm. the military carries those now, and if you carry what a soldier carries, you are just trying to be one, looking for a war.
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Now about the finger alongside the frame....in role playing with sensor equipped simunitions pistols, trained LEOs who KNEW this was a game have demonstrated that the trigger digit will find it's way to the trigger in an unconcious manner in a significant number of times when the stress level rises. This has been documented by several studies, some of which are available in letters from the Force Science Institute, they've also got a name for the behavior. So where you should have your trigger digit and where it may be are not necessarily the same even with the aid of significant training.
Secondly, I have no issues making good hits in the rapid incapacitation target area with split times in the 1/4 second range at 7 yards with either an M&P9 or .40. S&W knew exactly what they were about when they designed the weapon system, it was not "unfinished". Not to your particular preference, maybe, but not unfinished.
Now, you may have mentioned the .45 which has a different trigger geometry than the M&P 9 & 40. I've never tried one and really can't speak to it. If you have issues with finger reach to the trigger or compatability of frame to hand size, modification to increase your control of the weapon may be something that could possibly be "sold" to a jury. However, this is an avoidable issue that is not guaranteed to be resolved in your favor, particularly if someone with similar hand size can demonstrate adequate control with a stock weapon. Frankly, if the 9/.40 fits your hand better, it might be a better choice even if it isn't in the mythical .45ACP.
Finally, many trainers answer the question about how to best spend money on their new pistol with: "practice ammo."
StatesRightist
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Res Ipsa Loquitor....
