Trigger pull modification legal issues

[wsr]

WSR - Everything you say here is true, accurate, and comprehensive.

If you disagree please respond.

Aww that's cute
You can't answer simple questions
It's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about so ill let you have your little passive-aggressive win, just please quit passing you statements off as anything more than the uninformed ramblings that they are.
The California is strong in you...

 

[ou1954]

I thought this thread was reasonably on track until it was derailed at post number 30 which shifted the thread from the initial post to personal attacks. It clearly went downhill from that point on.

 

[wsr]

I thought this thread was reasonably on track until it was derailed at post number 30 which shifted the thread from the initial post to personal attacks. It clearly went downhill from that point on.

I think you are being a little sensitive
There was no personal attack in post #30
It's a DISUSSION FORUM not a agree with the OP so he doesn't get his little feelings hurt forum.
Discuss your points honestly, back up your statements and then people might learn something...
Maybe you really believe what you post but those kind of games are usually played by no-nothings or simple trolls

 

[ou1954]

No-Nothings?

Maybe you really believe what you post but those kind of games are usually played by no-nothings or simple trolls

I surrender and admit that I am a "Know Nothing", but I am not a "no-nothing" as you write above.

You do know the difference, or should I write "You do no the difference"?

I assure you I am not playing a game, I'm simply trying to advance the issue in the very first post.

I'll once more give you the chance to have the last post.

 

[wsr]

I surrender and admit that I am a "Know Nothing", but I am not a "no-nothing" as you write above.

You do know the difference, or should I write "You do no the difference"?

I assure you I am not playing a game, I'm simply trying to advance the issue in the very first post.

I'll once more give you the chance to have the last post.

Oh noes I writ me a wrong word in that thar post

More side stepping, as soon as you are called on your nonsense you go of on another tangent
If you are trying to advance the issue you would discuss and back up your statements...you can't because you are wrong

How about those statutes??? You can play grammar Nazi but can't cite a simple statute to back up your assertion???
Weaker than circus lemonade

 

[wsr]

I thought this thread was reasonably on track until it was derailed at post number 30 which shifted the thread from the initial post to personal attacks. It clearly went downhill from that point on.

I do believe you derailed the thread in post #11 responding to a post about justifiable shootings by going off on a tangent about shooting people in the back
Post #16 pretty much guaranteed that honest or pertinent discussion wasn't going to be competing from you

 

[ou1954]

"competing from you"?

 

[wsr]

"competing from you"?

Autocorrect...It's funny that you say you want to address a certain issue but you do everything you can to not talk about it. Over your head just a little bit


Really still not one answer...pathetic but it's typical left coast liberal mentality, spout off whatever sounds good then go off on silly tangents when called on it
After reading some of your other posts, I agree you are not a troll...Quisling comes to mind

 

[KSDeputy]

I thank you for posting Ayoob's article. He is indeed an expert, and we should all be thankful he is around. I met him when he came to my city to testify as an expert witness in a court proceeding. The article convinces me to not mess with the BG .380's abysmal trigger pull. I will sell it and if I buy another DAO pocket pistol it will be the new Ruger LCP.

 

[wsr]

I thank you for posting Ayoob's article. He is indeed an expert, and we should all be thankful he is around. I met him when he came to my city to testify as an expert witness in a court proceeding. The article convinces me to not mess with the BG .380's abysmal trigger pull. I will sell it and if I buy another DAO pocket pistol it will be the new Ruger LCP.

Can I ask what in the article convinced you?
He is a very smart guy and has some great advice on some subjects,I don't think this is one of them
The over the top fear of legal repercussions is his "thing" it sets him apart from other instructors...fear sells

 

[357-RevolverGuy]

I've always seen a trigger job as just another mod to help user acquire the target. How is it any different than me replacing front/rear sights, changing out grips, or the finish on a gun? All those are done to make it easier to unholster, shoot, etc. If legal issues start to arise just because I decided to polish the trigger or change out springs to get a lighter pull, then that same scope of law has to be used for every modification that has ever been made. How many of us carry and own firearms that stick to having factory sights, trigger, grips, etc. and never bother making it our own? Probably 90% of us make some sort of mod. For example, I could add custom grips or a trigger stop to my revolver that allows for a shorter trigger reach and decrease my time to completely pull it back in a situation. How is this no different than lightening a spring?

I read a little online about that case mentioned in the article link above, NY v. Magliato. It was a lot more than just a light trigger than landed him in jail. Magliato had an altercation with someone, went back to his home to arm himself, goes back to the scene, then shoots the other guy from a distance of 15 yards. I know Ayoob is a great guy but I think he's blowing the whole trigger being lightened way out of proportion. If the case stood on that alone I could understand, but it was not the determining factor that landed Magliato in jail.
New York -vs- Magliato: Some Useful Lessons

 

[Massad Ayoob]

Revolver Guy, the account of the Magliato case to which you linked is wrong in one important area. He did not go get his gun and then return to the scene. Knowing from past experience that after a hit-and-run he would have to make his report at an NYPD precinct house, he drove from the original assault scene to the nearest one. He knew from past experience that he would have to make the hit-and-run report at an NYPD precinct, and went to his home to pick up leasing/insurance etc. papers he felt he would need for the report and, while there, armed himself. He was en route from home to the precinct house when he spotted the suspects' vehicle, parked. He stopped there and asked his companion to go to a payphone and summon police. It was at this time that he was assaulted -- yet again, at this different scene -- by Anthony Gianni, and the shooting then took place.

wsr wrote of me, "The over the top fear of legal repercussions is his 'thing' it sets him apart from other instructors...fear sells." Hate to have to tell you, but saying things people don't like to hear is not a path to riches. It is, however, sometimes the only path to the truth.

 

[southcoast]

I've always seen a trigger job as just another mod to help user acquire the target. How is it any different than me replacing front/rear sights, changing out grips, or the finish on a gun? All those are done to make it easier to unholster, shoot, etc. If legal issues start to arise just because I decided to polish the trigger or change out springs to get a lighter pull, then that same scope of law has to be used for every modification that has ever been made. How many of us carry and own firearms that stick to having factory sights, trigger, grips, etc. and never bother making it our own? Probably 90% of us make some sort of mod. For example, I could add custom grips or a trigger stop to my revolver that allows for a shorter trigger reach and decrease my time to completely pull it back in a situation. How is this no different than lightening a spring?

I read a little online about that case mentioned in the article link above, NY v. Magliato. It was a lot more than just a light trigger than landed him in jail. Magliato had an altercation with someone, went back to his home to arm himself, goes back to the scene, then shoots the other guy from a distance of 15 yards. I know Ayoob is a great guy but I think he's blowing the whole trigger being lightened way out of proportion. If the case stood on that alone I could understand, but it was not the determining factor that landed Magliato in jail.
New York -vs- Magliato: Some Useful Lessons[/quote


Good post to an excellent synopsis of the case.


Magliato also claimed the trigger pull was an accident, which also conflicts with a valid claim of a justified shooting where he also claimed he shot out of fear for his life. His conflicting statements, the fact that he did not call the police after the shooting, the fact that he fled the scene, hid his car for several days, and the fact that he only initially gave a false version of what happened days later after his buddy had already given the police the actual story complicated his situation, and not a gun modification.

He testified tbat he did not recall pulling the trigger. Under the law justifiable homicide or self defense could only be sustained by a deliberate act and not an accident as he claimed.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

Frank did indeed panic and flee the scene, triggering the whole "flight equals guilt" thing. However, his accounts of the incident never conflicted, and he never claimed to have fired deliberately. He always described the cocked gun going off unintentionally.

 

[southcoast]

As a lawyer I too believe he would have stood a much better chance of out right acquittal had he stated he shot deliberately and made a valid claim of self defense. I believe you previously stated you advocated for such a tactic. If so can we agree that his biggest problem was not presenting the best legal defense theory and establishing the facts to support it rather than trigger modifications.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

Southcoast, it's hard to say what the single biggest problem was for the defense in this case. Certainly, his panicked flight from the scene was a major problem. So were some facts the jury was not allowed to hear. But there is no question that one of the major issues was that the too-light-for-high-stress trigger pull led to the unintended discharge, in a moment when I believe he SHOULD have fired, double action, in legitimate self-defense. A reading of the appellate court's analysis shows a majority considered pointing a light-triggered gun at a man, unintentional fatal discharge resulting, constituted Manslaughter, while the minority opinion held that this act sustained a convicted for Depraved Murder under the NY statute.

 

[southcoast]

I agee their was a discussion of the trigger, but in the context of the court stating the act of pointing the gun with the trigger, where he was not otherwise found justified in his shooting nor put on a self defense legal strategy. From a legal standpoint had he made a legitimate self defense claim which involved deliberately shooting and backed it up, accidental discharge would not be a relevant legal issue. No?

 

[Massad Ayoob]

I agee their was a discussion of the trigger, but in the context of the court stating the act of pointing the gun with the trigger, where he was not otherwise found justified in his shooting nor put on a self defense legal strategy. From a legal standpoint had he made a legitimate self defense claim which involved deliberately shooting and backed it up, accidental discharge would not be a relevant legal issue. No?

It was way more than a "discussion of the trigger." It was the crux of the matter. Because the too-light trigger was tripped unintentionally, the appellate court held that it was reckless to point it at a man he had not yet decided to shoot.

The unintentional discharge was the truth as the defendant, Magliato, perceived it. For him to say he had fired deliberately would have required him to commit the felony of perjury. For his attorney to put him on the stand to say that, would have required the attorney to commit the crime of subornation of perjury. No honest lawyer who wanted to continue practicing law would do that.

 

[ou1954]

Thanks to the folks who brought this thread back to rational discussions.

I am once more pleased that I started this thread, it seems to have served the original purpose I had in mind when I started it. I apologize for letting it get so far off track, but it was beyond my control.

Thanks again-

 

[wsr]

LOL...you do have the victim act down pat