Triple lock curiousity

[steelslaver]

As a recent triple lock owner I have been closely examining mine. I was born curious and have spend a large portion of my life working with metal, so I have a couple questions.

The case hardened lock piece was obviously installed after the crane was blued. How is it held firmly in place? Pressed in or was it a shrink fit by cooling the latch piece and warming the crane?

What is the deal with the small flat piece that has the end rounded on the front of the shroud? I think it must retain the spring for the regular locking bolt. I can see that there is a "plug" piece pinned in place for the 3rd lock and spring. What is amazing is that it appears that the plug is larger than the plunger. This means a very precise staged hole had to be drilled from the muzzle end with a long drill. I suppose they used a long larger OD tool holder to hold the drill more rigid for this hole and one to hold a mill to cut the slot for the little retainer piece.

All in all amazing and difficult machine work for a mass produced piece. Especially in light of the small amount of gain in lock up over the standard double lock. I can see how some say it was S&W showing off its machining abilities.

I would never ever try to disassemble mine. But it does have me curious. Plus, I do have a couple spare N frame barrels and yokes. I also have a 1917 frame that I am going to fit with adjustable sights and a cut down 1950 barrel. I keep getting this thought of trying to triple lock it. Probably won't because of the perils of doing it right the first time and don't want to ruin any parts. Has anyone ever done this as a modification?? I know I could do something similar to the Bowen third lock, but don't really see the need. My S&W all shot better than I can already.

I my hat is off to the S&W craftsmen of old. No CNC, no digital read outs, no carbide cutters, no where near the supply of cutters and drills. No digitally controlled electric heat treating ovens. Just making mass producing a precision regular revolver with the equipment they had took a lot of very skilled craftsmen. Taking it as far as the third lock is truly amazing. The prices that guns that survived from this era command are cheap just thinking about what went into making them. What they represent when viewed this way is amazing.

 

[Muley Gil]

I have a 5" .44 Special TL that is exceeding accurate. It even makes Old Muley look like a good shot!

 

[series guy]

You have to remember that in those days the skilled craftsmen had pride in their work and were happy to develop the methods and skills necessary to build such a fine product. It's something that mostly missing in today's workforce. You are right though. It truely is amazing.

 

[Hondo44]

As a recent triple lock owner I have been closely examining mine. I was born curious and have spend a large portion of my life working with metal, so I have a couple questions.

The case hardened lock piece was obviously installed after the crane was blued. How is it held firmly in place? Pressed in or was it a shrink fit by cooling the latch piece and warming the crane?

What is the deal with the small flat piece that has the end rounded on the front of the shroud? I think it must retain the spring for the regular locking bolt. I can see that there is a "plug" piece pinned in place for the 3rd lock and spring. What is amazing is that it appears that the plug is larger than the plunger. This means a very precise staged hole had to be drilled from the muzzle end with a long drill. I suppose they used a long larger OD tool holder to hold the drill more rigid for this hole and one to hold a mill to cut the slot for the little retainer piece.

I keep getting this thought of trying to triple lock it. Probably won't because of the perils of doing it right the first time and don't want to ruin any parts. Has anyone ever done this as a modification??

Congrats on your TL. The craftsmanship is superb and a marvel of precision hand fitting. I love to discuss and analyze their design and construction.

1. The cam plate for the middle, 3rd lock, is held in place with a screw, visible with cyl removed. One has to remove it to truly see the amazingly perfect fit.

2. The front locking bolts two piece pinned together in a U shape, with the pinned in short bolt leg on top and a long bolt leg on the bottom extending all the way to the yoke. The rectangular base of the U is offset to the top, resembling a soldering gun tip.

This protruding, moveable upper rectangular piece is the front end of the locking bolts, (the offset bottom of the U), retained by the upper pin like all other models, and moves in and out under a single spring tension. The round flush plug below it, 3/4" long and mostly hollow, at the front end of shroud is another amazingly precision fit and fills the hole for the bottom bolt leg only.
It's pinned in place with the smaller, lower pin; just a slip fit! This allows it to be removed and replaced w/o refinishing!

3. I have seen one modern 44 Mag fitted with a TL 3rd lock using its original ribbed heavy barrel and original TL locking parts. The shroud re-machining was not too difficult but the machining of the yoke for the cam plate was a bit challenging for the gunsmith.

I have also entertained the idea of a TL conversion for my Model 1917 home made Target below and obtained original TL parts (except cam plate) and a 455 TL barrel from a vendor 4 years ago. He obtained several 55 gallon drums of obsolete S&W parts some years ago. The drums of parts were then sold to: Poppert's Gun Parts soon after that.

Poppert's Gun Parts: Poppert's Gun Parts Main Menu
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: [email protected]

My M1917 .45 ACP, # 139230 converted to target years ago for a former owner by Micro Site. Redfield front site blade milled in, pre war, post 1934, 2 screw S&W Reg Mag rear site with serrated hump, milled in. Micro Site double cockeyed hammer.

Early S&W 1950 smooth "coke bottle" stocks:

Custom 'Micro-Site' double cockeyed hammer.

 

[rct269]

The case hardened lock piece on the crane is located by a highly specialized, and heretofore unknown fastener known as a screw---and it was installed after the crane was finished (blue/nickel). That said, the fit of the lock piece is such as to remain right where it is---without the screw----as an example of S&W's metal working skill----a 100 years ago. I was, and remain impressed.

And the small flat piece at the end of the shroud is the front end of the locking bolt---if you and I are talking about the same thing.

There is a schematic of the TL on page 336 of Chicoine's Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly book. The book is likely out of print----and tough to find---and expensive.

See P.M.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[delta-419]

Triple Lock Assembly

Steelslaver, like you, I was very challenged with thinking about taking my triple lock apart. It is a magnificent work of machining art and I was content to just clean and shoot the 5 or 6 in my collection. That, until I found a 5" barreled frame at a gun show (2009) that led me on the quest for parts. I did not even know what the parts looked like, much less how they interacted. In the interim, I learned how to work on 1917s. They were my lead in to the TL disassembly/assembly. I found that the ejector rod assembly to be the challenge and I'm still learning. My 44 TL project is about 90% complete with the center pin and ejector rod being the final parts to come (see photo out of one of my TLs). Hondo44 has been gracious enough to share his knowledge with me and the quest continues.

 

[Hondo44]

Steelslaver and Ralph;

Edited my above post for clarity as follows:

This protruding, moveable upper rectangular piece is the front end of the locking bolts, (the offset bottom of the U), retained by the upper pin like all other models, and moves in and out under a single spring tension. The round flush plug below it at front end of shroud is another amazingly precision fit and fills the hole for the bottom bolt leg only.

Shown here:

 

[CScott]

There is a schematic of the TL on page 336 of Chicoine's Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly book. The book is likely out of print----and tough to find---and expensive.

See P.M.

Ralph Tremaine[/QUOTE]

I would love to have a copy of that schematic if any one could scan it and post it here.
Scott

 

[Hondo44]

I was just looking at the TL parts again and revised my 1st post.

The front locking bolts are two pieces pinned together in a U shape, with the pinned in short bolt leg on top. The round flush plug is 3/4" long and mostly hollow.

To continue with my plan for these parts; I decided not to disturb my 1917 with it's awesome accuracy. The 455 TL barrel I have is actually of different bore/groove dimensions and without a target model front sight.

American Rifleman printed the following when Gen. Julian Hatcher was still writing for them on the staff of "Dope Bag."

He states, "While Smith & Wesson do not ordinarily catalog guns chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge, they have on occasion made them and they list the dimensions, which are exactly the same as they use for their .455 cartridge, as follows: groove diameter--.457 to .458; bore diameter--.447 to .448 inch; 5 lands and grooves, right hand twist; grooves--.144 inch wide, lands--.1368 inch."

And also stated that the M-1917 is: groove--.451, bore--.445.

Therefore my project plans changed to producing a copy of one of the original prototype TLs in .45 S&W Special (.45 Frankford Arsenal) submitted to the army field trials and planned for commercial production.
Current 45 Colt factory ammo would suffice albeit slightly longer than 45 Spl, but I can trim back my once fired cases (in my 45 Colt) for authenticity.

However my present plan is much simpler; I'll look for a 455 British contract TL no longer in a condition of collectability, and convert to 45 Spl. Just find one already converted to 45 Colt the best way by slightly recessing the chamber mouths for the extra 45 rim thickness (455s will still chamber properly as well due to their wider rim diameter). Or since all S&W 455 Mk IIs are chambered for the longer 455 Mk I, the chamber shoulder locations in the 455 cyl would only need extending about .100", and chamber mouths recessed.