Triple Lock "Target Model" with non-adjustable rear sight?

[cantgrowup]

My friend in another city (I swear it ain't me ) has just bought a .44 Hand Ejector 1st Model New Century "Triple Lock" assuming that it was a Target Model. It's a 6 1/2" nickel-plated gun with a pinned front sight blade. However, the rear sight is not adjustable, like my two Target Model "Triple Lock" guns have. His has a a fixed blade (blued with a square notch) set into a recessed cut in the rear of the frame. There is a flat shelf in the frame behind the sight similar to the shelf on the Target Models, but it looks deeper than the shelf on my Target Models.

Our question is was this a "bubba" modification to a standard model Triple Lock... or was it a professional modification offered by S&W themselves... or by a gunsmith? The flat shelf and the notch that the blade is set into look professional.

I don't have any pictures to clarify at this time. Any info is appreciated.

 

[cantgrowup]

Hmm... I just found a previous thread on this sight that discusses similar mods.

Triple Lock "Target" Model question

 

[cgt4570]

There's one in .455 that letters as shipping directly to an individual in the UK in 1909. It was special ordered with drift-adjustable rear sight.
Early pistol matches at Bisley didn't allow set-screw adjustable sights, only drift.

 

[M_conrad_0311]

There are half target modifications that allow windage adjustable rear sight with a drift blade. I have seen a couple that supposedly letter. I am not sure if this is what you are explaining?
Pictures would help answer a lot of questions. Others, with far more experience, will soon give better answers and examples if needed.

 

[rct269]

As you've described it----"set into a recessed cut in the rear of the frame", I'm going to assume for the moment the blade can be moved from side to side----to correct for windage.

I have seen such sights from time to time----initially thought of the Bisley matches in England which allow such sights (which are not screw adjustable). I know S&W shipped a small number of guns so altered. I've never seen one proven to be authentic. My knee-jerk reaction in this case is it's an unlikely modification on a nickel gun----------having never seen a nickel gun being used by a serious competitor in an important match.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mrcvs]

There's one in .455 that letters as shipping directly to an individual in the UK in 1909. It was special ordered with drift-adjustable rear sight.
Early pistol matches at Bisley didn't allow set-screw adjustable sights, only drift.

If we are thinking of the same revolver, Charles Osbourne was a major distributor in the UK at that time, and the letter probably states Chas Osbourne & Co., Birmingham.

Chas Osborne & Co Records - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

 

[cantgrowup]

There is a circle "P" on the lower left grip frame. We're thinking that the gun was originally blue and nickel plated after the mods because the recessed shelf is nickel plated... and there are some deep scratches on the butt that seem nickeled over.

The rear sight can be drifted for windage by driving it sideways , but no elevation control.

Gun is .44 Special.

 

[rct269]

There's one in .455 that letters as shipping directly to an individual in the UK in 1909. It was special ordered with drift-adjustable rear sight.
Early pistol matches at Bisley didn't allow set-screw adjustable sights, only drift.

ACTUALLLLLLLLLLLY-----and to pick a nit (Never mind I'm making some assumptions rather than calling attention to documented facts----and I don't know beans from apple butter about the "early" Bisley match rules.), S&W made a windage only "adjustable" sight (A first cousin to their very first target sight---those used on the earlier top-break revolvers (and (later) the 1st/2nd Model Single Shots from 1879 on until 1923 that was not drift adjustable---nor was it screw adjustable.) (And that which I don't KNOW is whether the Bisley rules called for drift adjustable----or merely prohibited screw adjustable.)

Okay, with my cop-out clause out of the way, this windage only adjustable sight was exactly the same as S&W's first target sight---except for the fact there was no provision for elevation adjustment. The windage adjustment was made by loosening the two screws holding the sight blade retaining plate in place, and manually moving the sight blade---from side to side---and tighten the screws.

The bad or at least confusing news is examples of this windage only version have been observed only on weapons in use during 1887-1889. That being the case, it's entirely possible, even likely, our British friends were irritated by the fact it was a bit easier to use than drift adjustable, (never mind it wasn't screw adjustable) and legislated it out of existence----cheeky lot that they were!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[quinn]

Guys, here's the gun being discussed. I looked closely at it and even posted a thread about the P in a circle. Apparently, someone bought it after the auction ended.
Just a moment...

 

[Chipper58]

Guys, here's the gun being discussed. I looked closely at it and even posted a thread about the P in a circle. Apparently, someone bought it after the auction ended.
Just a moment...

What did you find out about the circle P? And where is your post about it? I’m curious as I am the owner of the gun being discussed in the thread and I would like as much information as I can get on it. Thanks.

 

[quinn]

What did you find out about the circle P? And where is your post about it? I’m curious as I am the owner of the gun being discussed in the thread and I would like as much information as I can get on it. Thanks.

Chipper: the thread is in this section of the forum. I never got any real answer about the circle P except that it might be a refinish code for "plated" (nickel). The star shows that it was returned to the factory for something. However, there is no return date stamp on the left side of the grip frame. I would GUESS that the rear sight blade and front sight may nothave been done at the factory. You'll probably never know for sure, but a letter might give additional info and clues.

I would encourage you to request a letter and then a follow up request to the Historical foundation to see if there are any other documents. However, factory records from the teens and 20's are pretty limited and not in a condition that would allow them to be scanned and cataloged by the SWHF.

Good luck! Another forum member and I both thought seriously about trying to make a deal on that one. It is an interesting piece.

 

[Chipper58]

Thanks for your help in this matter. Yeah…. I’ve decided to go ahead and get a letter on the Triple Lock. I’ll get back to you with what I find out.

 

[Modified]

As a fellow who enjoys old modified guns there are a couple observations based on the pictures I would like to toss in:

- The gun doesn't appear to have been a target originally, so the work done on the sights would mean the gun was re-finished after that work was completed. Looks like a factory or factory level re-finish to me.

- The top strap and area behind the rear sight blade that was added has horizontal grooves to reduce glare. I've seen this on most of the guns modified to have "fixed sight targets" like this.

- I'd wager the Star on the butt was put there either when it was re-finished and/or when the sights were upgraded.


I really enjoy guns like this, and I think that this should be a very pleasing one to own. I do try to caution people though about these. Just because there is a star on the butt doesn't mean you may ever know anything about it. These are guns that first and foremost should be enjoyed just as they are. Anyone going after such a gun in the hopes that it's a factory original fixed sight target is liable to be disappointed.

Which is a shame, because such a gun should never be disappointing to it's owner because its wonderful for what it is.

Trying to find out what the deal with the gun is should be it's own fun past time, which maybe can be sorted out, maybe never. It's related to the gun itself, but in a way it also is not.

 

[Chipper58]

Well said, sir!
Thanks

 

[red9]

Here is the thread on one that I have. Although the letter refers to it as a military target, the originality has been questioned. Interestingly, although part of a shipment of .455s, the barrel is unmarked as to caliber and it is in .44Special.

Triplelock Military Target?

Bob

 

[DARE]

cantgrowup,
When you open the cylinder and look in the barrel shroud for the SN, if there is a B to the left of the number the gun was originally blue. No B indicates nickel.
Here is my gun with no B that letters as nickel.