trying to reload a duplicate 357 mag hornady critical defense

[77blackcj5]

I carry 357 mag 125 gr hornady critical defense in my m&p 340. What im trying to do is reload some ammo that is close to the hornady specs so while practicing it will feel about the same out of the gun as far as recoil wise. Hornady specs on 357 mag 125 gr critical defense is 1500fps muzzle velocity out of a 4" barrel and 1200fps out of a 2" barrel. Ive loaded 9.5 gr of longshot with a 125 gr xtp bullet and its not as strong as the factory hornady ammo. Does anyone know of a load that will get me close?? Thanks

 

[snowman]

I've done what you're attempting to do, and use 16gr. of Vihtavuori N110 under a Zero 125 jhp, set off with a Federal spm primer. My carry rounds are Federal Classics, which ostensibly travel at 1450fps from a 4" barrel. My reloads duplicate this quite well.

If you have a chronograph that might help you more easily get where you want to go with your load.

Best wishes,
Andy

 

[scooter123]

First, I've become a professional skeptic in regards to claims by many ammunition manufacturers. Because my handguns don't ever seem to achieve the velocity claimed, usually by about 100 fps.

Second, I once attempted to get a 125 grain XTP to 1400 fps out of my 4 inch model 620. That effort required using 21.5 grain of H110 and I only got to 1370 fps. Also had a muzzle report that was as loud or louder than a 500 Magnum and others in the range reported the muzzle flash extended half the length of the 50 foot indoor range. I really couldn't see the muzzle flash because the blast ring from the B/C gap was all I could see. Also found some distinct gas cutting in the top strap that wasn't present prior to this experiment (usually shot 38 spl. with the 620). Finally, after 1 cylinder one of the RO's suggested I take a break, they claimed they were getting concerned I might set some targets on fire.

Since that experiment I've relegated H110 to my rifle loads. IMO it's just not worth the wear and tear on my revolvers and I'm not a fan of that much flash and boom. I would suggest that you take a look into loading with Accurate #9. While it won't build as much velocity as H110 it will come pretty close and you won't have all the boom and flash you'd get using H110.

 

[77blackcj5]

I may invest in a cheap chronograph im not too awful serious about it to get into it extensively. yesterday I bought some alliant 2400 to try. Id read that I was a popular powder for 357 mag. The other powders I have on hand are longshot, titegroup, & bullseye. Im not sure those powders will achieve those velocities though.

 

[Frank237]

I chrono'd some Hornady .380 yesterday that is supposed to be 1000 fps. I got 937 on average.

Very few times have I had factory ammo, especially handgun ammo, meet factory specs for velocity. Buy yourself a cheap CRONY and you will be surprised. And Loading manual data?? LOL. Even worse.

So many variables between what We shoot and the platforms used to determine the manual data.

FN in MT

 

[daardvark]

Of your powders, 2400 will get you solid magnum speeds; Likely 20fps short of 1400fps from a 4" barrel. Lil'Gun might get you to perhaps 1420fps if you had some. A 1.6" COL with 15.6gr 2400 should feel quite like a factory load. 19.3gr Lil'Gun will feel even more stout. Both should belch an impressive fireball. I would use SPM primers for both loads. All that extra powder weight will add to the recoil helping you get something that will likely feel similar to those Hornady Critical Defense loads. Longshot, Bullseye, and TiteGroup are all great, but they will kick less and produce a reduced fireball. Using those you will lose bullet speed and powder weight and gain less recoil and flash. I also think this advice is sound, think it through carefully and trust no reloading advice you get on the internet.

I tend to side with Scooter123. 125gr at 1500fps from a 4" bbl at 35Kpsi seems boastful or perhaps laboratory conditions reporting.

 

[77blackcj5]

I have a speer #14 manual and a book that came with my lee turret press. They have a section for 357 short barrel velocity and 2400 was one of the powders listed to use sothats why I chose 2400. For a 125 gr gold dot hp they suggest 16.5-17.5 gr charge of 2400. I thought id go with 17.gr of 2400 and 125 gr hornady xtp bullet.

 

[federali]

Go Chrono

I endorse what others here have said: that you need a chronograph to assist with load development. Once I got mine (a mere $99.00 for a Crony) I knew exactly what my hand loads and factory loads were doing.

And yes, not only were factory loads below published velocities but so were published hand load formulas.

 

[cowboy4evr]

You are on the right track with Alliant 2400 . Bullseye and Titegroup are very fast burning powders . If you were wanting to shoot target loads , less than 1000fps , then those 2 choices would work fine .
Yes , I know they show a load using titegroup achieving something like over 1200 fps using the 125gr bullet . I would not do that and would not recommend it to anyone as those fast burning powders get real " spikey " real quick in the higher pressures . I seriously doubt you would have acceptable accuracy either . But it's your firearm , I'm just sharing my thoughts and my experience reloading the 357 .
You need a chronograph to verify the factory ballistics before trying to duplicate them . Every gun has a different personality , some shoot faster and some slower . The chrono will give you what your particular firearm is giving you for velocity . Then it will be easier to try to match it .

 

[BB57]

There are a lot of variables involved in actual muzzle velocity in both pistols and revolvers.

For example, I have a pair of PP's with 3.9" barrels and they demonstrate a 50 fps difference with the same load. That's mostly due to one of them having a slightly larger chamber and throat than the other (the difference between a new reamer versus an old reamer used in their manufacture).

With revolvers you have the same tooling issues, plus differences in cylinder gap on average between revolvers and even from chamber to chamber in a particular revolver.

----

The .357 125 gr XTP is a very different bullet than the 125 gr FTX, and matching velocity isn't the most important criteria.

Hornady publishes a range of velocities for each of it's hollow point bullets where they will expand adequately without expanding excessively or prematurely. The XTP bullets were designed to expand at least 1.5x and demonstrate penetration between 12" and 18". In contrast, the FTX bullets were designed to expand pretty much no matter in heavy clothing tests, but they tend to over expand and under penetrate at the lower end of the velocity window. In my opinion, the FTX is a better choice, particularly if you keep it near the middle of its velocity range.

If you're using the XTP, you want to be sure that you use the right XTP and that the bullet is launched at a velocity that will promote expansion, which for the 125 gr XTP is between 850 fps and 1600 fps, while the 125 gr FP XTP is 1200 fps and 1700 fps.

---

The popular internet wisdom is that the slow burning colloidal ball powders like Win 296 will produce maximum velocity in the .357 Magnum, but I've never found my chronograph data supporting that conclusion.

I have noted that 20 grains of 296 will generate a lot more recoil than 9 grains of Unique under a 125 gr XTP in a short barrel, but the Unique load will generate about 100 fps more velocity.

My preferred load is 8.5 gr of Unique. It's published data from the older Hornady 3rd edition, which uses a 125 gr Hornady hollow point, but a hollow point that pre-dates the current XTP, so take that with a grain of salt and use at your own risk.

I have used 9.0 gr of Unique but I noted that the cases start to stick in a Model 60, and I prefer my cases drop free on their own with a self defense load. The difference in average velocity in my Model 60 is 1,296 fps for 9.0 gr versus 1,252 fps for 8.5 gr, so in my opinion the extra 44 fps was not worth the extra pressure, particularly given that 1,250 fps is solidly in the middle of the 125 gr XTP's performance range.

 

[snowman]

Second, I once attempted to get a 125 grain XTP to 1400 fps out of my 4 inch model 620. That effort required using 21.5 grain of H110 and I only got to 1370 fps. Also had a muzzle report that was as loud or louder than a 500 Magnum and others in the range reported the muzzle flash extended half the length of the 50 foot indoor range. I really couldn't see the muzzle flash because the blast ring from the B/C gap was all I could see. Also found some distinct gas cutting in the top strap that wasn't present prior to this experiment (usually shot 38 spl. with the 620). Finally, after 1 cylinder one of the RO's suggested I take a break, they claimed they were getting concerned I might set some targets on fire.

Since that experiment I've relegated H110 to my rifle loads. IMO it's just not worth the wear and tear on my revolvers and I'm not a fan of that much flash and boom. I would suggest that you take a look into loading with Accurate #9. While it won't build as much velocity as H110 it will come pretty close and you won't have all the boom and flash you'd get using H110.

Clarification may not be necessary here; but in the event that it is, I use N110 in my 357s, not H110.

Regards,
Andy

 

[gen3guy]

I long ago gave up on trying to duplicate factory velocities with reloads. But if you MUST, I strongly urge you to stay away from faster burning powders like Unique or TiteGroup. Safer, but more expensive, to use H110 or 2400. Good luck.

 

[DWalt]

I won't offer any load recipes, but I will say that if you want to duplicate a factory load in YOUR revolver, you are wasting your time if you don't use a chronograph. Factory published MVs and those given in reloading manuals are not likely to be the same, or even close, to the actual MV you will get from your revolver. Even using the lowest priced Chrony is far better than guessing or believing in any published MV data.

 

[77blackcj5]

I may have been a little confused in my thinking. I assumed that if I could mimick the velocity that the recoil would be the same. Im not really concerned with the actual velocity of the bullet as to trying to copy what it will feel like if I have to pop a bg. Just really wanting to load up some practice 357 ammo to be much cheaper than buying a bunch of critical defense. Maybe I should load up a mild 158 gr bullet to achieve the same results??

 

[DWalt]

It's not possible to be very quantitative about your perception of recoil, but if you approximately maintain the same impulse (bullet mass x bullet velocity), then the recoil feel should be about the same. For example, assuming (possibly incorrectly) that the MV of the 125 grain bullet is 1500 ft/sec, then the required MV for a 158 grain bullet would be (125/158)*1500 = 1186 ft/sec and should provide essentially the same recoil feel (but not necessarily the same sight setting). You would be beyond .38-44 ballistics, but still safe in any .357 Magnum. To get that, you'd probably need to use about 12-13 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case or about 7 grains of Unique in a .357 case.

 

[daardvark]

I assumed you were just looking for a similar feel in practice so you could make sure your grip and expectations set correctly. Using a large powder charge and a fast, heavy bullet will give you the most recoil. The extra light show adds to your impression.

I also assume you don't have a chronograph. Take apart one of your critical defense rounds and weigh the charge. Use a recoil calculator for that round assuming it will hit 1500fps. Now find a 158gr bullet that can give you a published speed that will yield a similar recoil calculation.

It may suite your expectations right there. If you are lucky, the 158gr load isn't at the top so you can keep bumping it up until you subjectively believe they are the same. If you could play the chronograph game and had lots of spare time, you could circle this wagon until you were tired of the game.

I notice something when shooting heavier and lighter bullet weights. Lighter bullets jump faster and I believe this causes a different feel (with the same muzzle velocity) than heavier bullets. I noticed it in 357 between 115gr and 158gr bullets and also in 9mm with 115gr and 148gr bullets. Nothing bad, just a different feeling that causes me to prefer one over the other.

 

[77blackcj5]

Ok I got it very close to what I needed. I loaded 17 gr of 2400 with 125 gr hornady xtp bullet. Pretty powerful load. 17 gr of 2400 almost fills the case up. Seems close enough to critical defense to call it good. The book says I could go up to 17.5 gr max but its probably not necessary. I will probably load me up some lighter practice rounds with copper plated bullets too. Thanks for the help. Im a newbie loader.

 

[fortyshooter]

Why not a larger cal. bullet at a slower speed?
For self defense handguns are leak makers so maybe a 250 gr. .45 at 1000-1100 FPS ought to do the job and stress you and the gun less?

 

[77blackcj5]

I like my little m&p 340 snub magnum. Fits great in front jean pocket with a desantis nemesis holster. Ive recently started carrying it instead of my ruger lcr 38. The ruger does have a smoother trigger but for point and pull shooting the Smith m&p is good enough. At close range im sure the 357 mag is enough.

 

[BB57]

I may have been a little confused in my thinking. I assumed that if I could mimick the velocity that the recoil would be the same. Im not really concerned with the actual velocity of the bullet as to trying to copy what it will feel like if I have to pop a bg. Just really wanting to load up some practice 357 ammo to be much cheaper than buying a bunch of critical defense. Maybe I should load up a mild 158 gr bullet to achieve the same results??

125 gr XTPs are not exactly inexpensive for practice (but they are very accurate), so you might want to consider using a plated bullet. You can push them to about 1200 fps with no issues.

As someone noted above, if the momentum (mass times velocity), is the same, the recoil is the same. Handloads.com has a decent easy to use recoil calculator that lets you compare loads side by side, so you can also use a heavier bullet at lower velocity.

For example, if I want to use a cheaper and heavier bullet, I can load a 158 gr plated RN bullet with 6.0 gr Unique at 1,050 fps and get recoil that is nearly identical to what I get with a 125 gr bullet and 8.5 gr of Unique at 1,250 fps.

Assuming the same 32 oz firearm, the numbers are nearly identical:

Recoil impulse = .84, .84
Recoil velocity = 13.59, 13.56
Recoil energy = 5.74, 5.71