Two more .380s, two more fails

[Muss Muggins]

If I have missed this in your prior .380 ACP rants, I apologize. Every response herein deals with the responder's personal experience in shooting a .380 ACP pistol. What's your personal experience in firing a .380 ACP pistol? Everything in this thread is about other shooters and what you have observed in others . . .

I really would like to see a .380Auto, any .380Auto, function reliably. Alas, it hasn't happened yet. Since I've seen thousands of guns in action, it's likely that I have seen a .380 work OK. But, in the last 4 years or so, I've been paying attention and in that time I don't remember a single one working as it should for self-defense. I thought this class would be different since we now only shoot 12 rounds. Apparently it was not to be.

 

[federali]

Tough Slides

As I get older and now with arthritic thumb joints, I'm unable to both fully rack the slide and simultaneously engage the slide stop on a pair of Kahrs, similar in size to the many 380s available. I bring an empty magazine to the range with me. When I need to lock the slide open, I insert the empty magazine which I use to raise the slide stop. In this way, I don't have to break my grip to manually engage the slide stop.

My larger framed 9mms, both Glock and S&W, are not yet an issue for me.

 

[sig_230]

It's a concealed carry license class. The course of fire is required by law. The class is only 4 hours long and we have to teach the law, gun safety and the students must perform the course of fire with each gun they want on their license. In this class we had 7 students and 21 guns.

Absolutely! As stated above, there just isn't time, I wish there was.

Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.

Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter? I mean, there was one shot followed by a problem. Failure to extract, eject, feed or whatever, are really all just failures to fire when needed. In this instance they were both failures to feed and one had multiple of those.

Both guns were Bersa Thunders.

The absolute most important aspect of a self-defense gun is functional reliability. I don't think that M29since14 meant that reliability wasn't important to him, just that he wasn't concerned about the reliability of the .380Auto because of his personal experience that his has been reliable. I believe him, but my experience has been different.

I really would like to see a .380Auto, any .380Auto, function reliably. Alas, it hasn't happened yet. Since I've seen thousands of guns in action, it's likely that I have seen a .380 work OK. But, in the last 4 years or so, I've been paying attention and in that time I don't remember a single one working as it should for self-defense. I thought this class would be different since we now only shoot 12 rounds. Apparently it was not to be.


For the record, the course of fire is new this year. Previously I was able to make my own course of fire and was able to provide some instruction. With the new requirement to shoot every gun on the license, there just isn't time.

You bring up, indirectly, a subject that is far more important than whether or not a 380 can be reliable but also a subject that simply does not get discussed often enough.

Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.

Carrying any handgun imposes a level of responsibility on the carrier which at a minimum should be the responsibility to learn how to handle the gun as well as what the laws are.

Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter?

Yes, it matters. If the issue really exists then doesn't it really need to be addressed? If that user can't shoot that gun reliably and safely then should that user be licensed to carry that gun? If it is a matter of training, then should that need to be addressed? If it is a matter of design or manufacture of that firearm then does that need to be addressed? If there is insufficient time can't the person simply not be licensed until the issues are addressed?

 

[Chief Wiggums]

all too often we blame the arrow , and not the Indian.

 

[RoyM52]

new shooters, new guns, it's probable, still in the box when they got them out. Never fired a few hundred round to seat and wear all the parts in. No polishing of the feed ramps yet. Limp wrist shooting a small gun. No training for a firm grip and controlled trigger. Many guns, need a little range time to settle in. So do the shooters.

It's more likely that the people that gravitate towards the 380 as a first firearm for CC,are also the ones that have fails and would if they had a 9mm instead of the 380. {or a 45, or any auto loader}

Don't blame the round for all this.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Kahr says shoot 200 rounds.
That’s what I was doing when mine failed to return to full battery with aluminum ammo.
Corrective action was to place big fat thumb over rear of slide and push.
Do you folks remember that old cold barrel theory for hunting rifles?
Target rifles are often fired to warm - foul the barrel before the competition.
But when you see that big bull on a frosty morn, you got one shot!
It’s a cold barrel accurate shot, right here, right now or go just home!
Self protection handguns are pretty much the same.
They need to fire every time first shot and any follow up shots needed.
If they don’t, you can still shoot them at the range.
But no way should you carry them for protection!

 

[squidsix]

I have had a bunch that sucked, including 3 different PPKs. This little sucker has become my favorite “when I am in a suit” gun. Firestorm .380 by Bersa. This one has had 600 or so trouble-free rounds from various manufacturers through it. It is wonderful. I made the grips, but there are some decent ones out there.

 

[Wise_A]

My dad got an RM380. It's had several hundred rounds through it thus far, and I don't think it's been cleaned at all.

Not a single hiccup.

I've also seen a shooter take a Bersa Thunder through a 100-round qualification without a single failure. I don't think she was terribly experienced, either, she just didn't suck at guns.

 

[TX-Dennis]

My wife shot her Bersa for the Texas handgun license qualification (50 rounds). No malfunctions, and she passed easily. We have a pair of them although neither of us carries the .380.

When I first bought them I thought they were junk. Lots of failures. It turned out not to be the guns but rather the case of Winchester white box ammo that I bought with them. Switching to other brands cleared up the malfunctions like magic. Aguila, Federal, Fiocchi, Lawman, PPU, Remington, Hornady Critical Defense, and MagTech all function well in them. The only other ammo I've seen issues with is S&B (and the Herters made by S&B).

That's just my experience with a sample size of two.

Just edited to add that the single action trigger on the Bersas is actually pretty darned good. Light, smooth, and crisp. The double action, although of course heavier, is pretty reasonable, too.

 

[M29since14]

That a good point. My view is that the .380s I’ve been around definitely do tend to be ammo sensitive. I always buy Remington FMJ ammo if I can get it. I like the idea of the flat-nosed Winchester round, but don’t have the confidence in it that I do in the Remingtons. I’d rather have the flat-nose, but...

Some of the mini 9s are also said to be very ammo sensitive, like the Kimber Solo, for example. I can’t prove it. Mine has been fine with anything I’ve given it.

I’d guess a great deal of the trouble the students have could be traced to (1) new guns that need a chance to “break in” and (2) that may do better with one brand of ammo than another, and (3) shooters who do not know how to hold the guns properly and consistently. It’s a shame you can’t spend more time with these folks. Four hours certainly is not much. As you say, it’s not uncommon that a person who shot tin cans a few times with their Dad’s .22 when they were a kid later in life thinks they pretty much know all they need to know about guns.

 

[RoyM52]

just a little food for thought. Many people decide to get their CC permit. They need a gun for the qualification for the class. They go to the store and buy an auto loader ,{it's the in thing} but have no experience but the 380 is likeable and the slide racks fairly easy. They never get the gun out and mess with it {maybe they look at it some}....waiting for the class...to learn. You have them fire 12 rounds from a gun that has never been shot hot and settled in. And on this you are basing your opinion on a particular caliber. Just food for thought.

 

[Truckin]

Which brand/type round were you using?

Critical Defense, I wonder if FMJ round would be better.

 

[Kifaru]

I have the much reviled Beretta Pico, and it couldn't get through a single magazine of Federal Hydra Shok in 60 rounds--no exaggeration...not a single magazine. However, it hasn't had a failure in 120 rounds of Fiocchi Extrema (loaded with the Hornady 90 grain XTP). It also hasn't failed with any of the 200 rounds of various hardball rounds, Fiocchi, Remington green and white box, and WWB. I know that's not enough rounds to reach a definitive conclusion other than the thing just does not like Hydra Shok rounds. In both Federal's and Beretta's defense, though, the rounds in question were over 25 years old, and I was just using up the last of what I had. With other guns, I've never had a problem with ammo older than that before, but I felt I should mention it.

Contrary to much of the commentary, I find the gun itself to be very accurate at 7 yards, easily keeping all shots in a 5 inch circle, 3" if I really bear down and take my time (with the very usable sights probably contributing to that). And it's soft shooting. Strangely, I don't notice any difference in control between the flush magazine and the one with that awkward finger extension. I like it because it's a hammer-fired DOA pistol, desirable features for a deep concealment gun IMO. That said, I rarely carry it. I prefer a J-frame revolver if at all possible for minimalist carry.

 

[JayFramer]

I need to look into one of those .9mm pistols people keep mentioning. I bet they're easy to conceal! Would make a great backup to my 45mm Colt automatic.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Collect call from reality, will you accept the charges... As more folk get their CCW (which is a birthright anyway) more manufacturers create more viable lighter weight options.

Law of physics .45 trumps, .38 trumps, .32 trumps, .22.

Sure, bullet makers and commercial ammo loaders, and firearm designers create more effective and or less recoil options... The knowledge gained lifts all boats, so to speak. Chiappa creates a .357 with less recoil, but the concept can be applied to .40, .327, .45 etc.

The only true question is... What are you willing to carry (and be proficient with) 24/7/365. Because a Phoenix .22 in the pocket trumps a Rowland at home in the safe.

 

[TomkinsSP]

BTW, confirmed revo guy. Never ever 60+ years have a wheel gun not go bang and be ready for another trigger pull. Just sayin...

 

[Kifaru]

As to the terminal ballistic reliability of the .380 ACP round itself, it's better than a sharp stick. Off the top of my head, I can think of three high-profile uses of the .380 where it worked just fine: 1) George Zimmerman, .380 at contact distance. Result: 1 shot stop terminating in fatality. 2) Florida handicapped parking shooting, .380 at greater than two arms-length distance to high-chest center of mass. Result: 1 shot stop resulting in fatality. 3) Movie theater shooting of a cell phone user, .380 at greater than two arms-length distance to high-chest center of mass. Result: 1 shot stop terminating in fatality.

While in all of the above cases, the performance of the shooter could be called into question, the performance of the .380 round proved adequate in every incident. Is the .380 ACP my go-to self defense caliber? Not hardly. But for some people in some situations, it's a reasonable choice.

 

[keith44spl]

I was once, somewhat skeptical of the 380 ACP or 9mm Kurz....

I have a Colt 380 Mustang that with reasonable good ammo shoots every time.

I don't carry it for my personal defense, it's not that I don't like
the cartridge, it's just, I have experienced it's limitations.

I use it to train the grandsons
in the safe use of a semiautomatic pistol, before advancing to the 45 ACP.

.

 

[Grayfox]

Sorry Rastoff, There have been a number of very reasonable explanations as to your student's problems listed. Personally, I lean toward operator error. However, I think that a blanket statement condemning every gun in a certain caliber is a bit too much.

I happen to like the .380 caliber and many of the guns chambered for it. I currently own six and have had others in the past. Like many others here, I've never had any problems with any of them.
I can and have carried most of them as my primary at one time or another. And I've never felt under gunned or inadequate with any of them.
One in particular, I carry a lot. I have a Colt Mustang XSP that is my daily exercise walk companion. Its the only polymer framed gun I own and it was bought specifically for this purpose. With its polymer frame and stainless slide, its about as sweat proof as a gun can get. Its small size and light weight make it easy to carry and conceal while exercising. To me, its perfect for this use.
Of course with it currently being winter, cold and often wet, these days I usually walk inside on my treadmill. however, from spring until fall, I usually carry this gun for a couple of hours almost every single day weather permitting. I have complete confidence in it.
I like .380s.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Rastoff,

Many people have reported reliability issues with 1911s, including a number of instructors who mention 1911s often don't make it through their courses without some kind of malfunction.

Does that mean all 1911s are unreliable? Will you stop carrying a 1911 because of that?

Just something to think about.