Two Victories

[daveinseoul3160]

Good morning,

I wanted to share some info for addition to the Victory Model database. I've managed to acquire (on two separate occasions), two 4", 38 SPL, DSC contract Victories. SNs indicate they were produced during roughly the same period (3200 units apart). They appear identically marked, with one exception. One has been lettered, and I may possibly letter the 2nd. Both appear original/unmodified, and have all matching numbers, including grips.

1) SN V500573. Factory letter indicates this revolver was shipped as part of a 10 unit order on 22 MAR 1944 to the Illinois State Armory in Springfield, IL. It's marked with 'ISP 38' on the left side of the frame.

2) SN V497287. Same markings as #1 (no 'US property', P marked on frame/underside of bbl, ordnance proof and 'W' mark on butt, etc. This one lacks the ISP marking, and appears to have been fired/carried very little.

I will add photos shortly, but wanted to share. I'm happy to own both!

 

[Absalom]

…..

2) SN V497287. Same markings as #1 (no 'US property', P marked on frame/underside of bbl, ordnance proof and 'W' mark on butt, etc. !

Nice pair.

One clarification about the W. Could you add a photo of the butt(s)? A W is not standard, and if both have it, that would be interesting.

 

[daveinseoul3160]

Nice pair.

One clarification about the W. Could you add a photo of the butt(s)? A W is not standard, and if both have it, that would be interesting.

Happy to! My understanding (quite possibly incorrect) is that the 'W' was stamped post factory and indicates issue to the Wartime Shipping Commission? I had also heard that the ordnance proofs would eliminate a possible OSS connection? Worth lettering? Thanks for your help....Dave

 

[Absalom]

Thanks for the picture. A "Wartime Shipping Commission" is not a thing I've heard of. We have puzzled over the W for years, and I think there are some ongoing research efforts; I'm not up to date on any current results. Solutions have been proposed and disproven over time. We may hear from some other members with further insight.

 

[kwill1911]

Wartime Shipping Commission is not a thing. Once upon a time Eric Archer (RIP) offered some speculation to that effect but I don't believe there was any such organization. Usually the Victory Models with a W and a bomb were shipped to the US Maritime Commission but sometimes to domestic law enforcement or other DSC customers.

 

[daveinseoul3160]

Two different organizations (War Shipping Administration - WSA) and US Maritime Commission....both performing similar functions and run by THE SAME GUY (Vice Admiral Emory Land)....a perfect example of government efficiency at work .

All this being said....I have no idea if either organization received Victory Models through DSC contract.

 

[VASCAR2]

The Illinois State Armory building is located on Monroe Street on the northwest corner of Monroe and 2nd Street in downtown Springfield. The building is currently closed but was used as headquarters and Armory for the Illinois National Guard. The Illinois State Police also had Command and logistics offices in the Armory building for many years.

I suspect the Victory model shipped to the Illinois State Armory was for use by the Illinois National Guard but with the ISP markings I wonder if the National Guard transferred the revolver to the ISP or if the ISP was able to directly order a Victory from S&W. It would be interesting to file a request under the freedom of information act on the serial number of that revolver.

The Illinois State Police was founded in 1922 but I'm not aware of the ISP issuing any Victory model S&W revolvers. Most of the old pictures I've seen of Troopers in that era carried 5" or 6" revolvers and were purchased by the individual Officer. The ISP stamping on the receiver is consistent with how the Illinois State Police marked their weapons. I wonder if this revolver was used for training or issued by the ISP.

I think all the Illinois National Guard Command Headquarters Offices are currently located at Camp Lincoln in Springfield.

 

[kwill1911]

Two different organizations (War Shipping Administration - WSA) and US Maritime Commission....both performing similar functions and run by THE SAME GUY (Vice Admiral Emory Land)....a perfect example of government efficiency at work .

All this being said....I have no idea if either organization received Victory Models through DSC contract.

I should have been more clear. The WSA was a "real" organization but AFAIK there was never a Victory Model that shipped to that entity. Lots of Victories letter as having been shipped to the US Maritime Commission.

It is still not clear exactly when and by whom the "W" was stamped on these revolvers.

 

[daveinseoul3160]

The Illinois State Armory building is located on Monroe Street on the northwest corner of Monroe and 2nd Street in downtown Springfield. The building is currently closed but was used as headquarters and Armory for the Illinois National Guard. The Illinois State Police also had Command and logistics offices in the Armory building for many years.

I suspect the Victory model shipped to the Illinois State Armory was for use by the Illinois National Guard but with the ISP markings I wonder if the National Guard transferred the revolver to the ISP or if the ISP was able to directly order a Victory from S&W. It would be interesting to file a request under the freedom of information act on the serial number of that revolver.

The Illinois State Police was founded in 1922 but I'm not aware of the ISP issuing any Victory model S&W revolvers. Most of the old pictures I've seen of Troopers in that era carried 5" or 6" revolvers and were purchased by the individual Officer. The ISP stamping on the receiver is consistent with how the Illinois State Police marked their weapons. I wonder if this revolver was used for training or issued by the ISP.

I think all the Illinois National Guard Command Headquarters Offices are currently located at Camp Lincoln in Springfield.

Great info! I'm tempted to FOIA just to see.....

Earlier threads on this also speculated 'Illinois State Prison' as being an additional possibility. My limited understanding is that the State Armory at the time serviced any/all state agencies...so anything is possible! Interesting also that this was a small (10) shipment of revolvers, so who knows where it/they went...

 

[ordnanceguy]

DaveinSeoul:

Both are nice, interesting examples of the Victory. Thank you for contributing the data on your revolvers for the Victory Model Database. I can add a few comments to your post.

1. It is unknown precisely what the ISP abbreviation stands for but my guess would be either the Illinois State Police or the Illinois State Prison or Penitentiary. An earlier post indicated that there was no known use of the Victory by the Illinois State Police, which might give more credence to Illinois State Penitentiary as being the ultimate recipient/end user.

2. At present the Database shows 9 examples that are marked ISP on the left side of the frame. Those that have factory letters all show shipment to the Illinois State Armory.

3. The Database also shows 3 examples that are marked ISPS on the backstrap. 2 of the 3 examples have factory letters, both of which show shipment to the Illinois State Armory. The significance of the S in ISPS is unknown to me. My initial guess was "Illinois State Prison System", but limited searching has not confirmed that supposition.

4. The Illinois State Armory was the site where the Illinois National Guard, among other state organizations, was headquartered. However, since the IL NG was federalized during WW2 it had vacated the premises. Nonetheless, the Illinois Reserve Militia was reactivated in place of the departed National Guard and acted under the command of state, not Federal, authorities during the War. It, too, was headquartered at the Illinois State Armory during the War. Thus, I believe it is not the case that these Illinois revolvers were ever the property of or issued to the Illinois National Guard.

5. The W mark observed on the butts of the Illinois and other Victory revolvers was a S&W factory applied marking. Its precise meaning remains unknown. This marking is generally found scattered through the serial number range of roughly V450000 to V540000.

6. In addition to the shipment of March 22, 1944 of 10 units at least two other shipments of the Victory to the Illinois State Armory are recorded in the Database. They occurred on 1/22/44 and 1/31/44.

7. The only other known civilian recipient of the W marked Victory revolvers was the U.S. Maritime Commission. Those guns shipped to a variety of warehouses and shipyards but all were addressed to the U.S. Maritime Commission. Note that there are many recorded U.S. Maritime Commission revolvers without the W mark. No Victory Model revolvers are recorded in the Database as having shipped to the War Shipping Administration.

8. You mentioned the OSS. Your revolver will not letter as having shipped to the OSS. I would encourage you to get a factory letter from the S&WHF when the moratorium on them is lifted.

I hope these comments are helpful to you and contribute to your understanding of the history of your Victory revolvers.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

 

[Absalom]

Two different organizations (War Shipping Administration - WSA) and US Maritime Commission....both performing similar functions and run by THE SAME GUY (Vice Admiral Emory Land)....a perfect example of government efficiency at work .

All this being said....I have no idea if either organization received Victory Models through DSC contract.

Interesting. Learned something new. Since the US Maritime Commission ran the part of the shipping operation that built and equipped the ships, that's where the supplies including revolvers shipped, and the WSA has to my knowledge not shown up in the literature about the Victory.

The Maritime Commission on the other hand had its own contract which will be identified separate from DSC or military contracts in a history letter. See attached.

 

[daveinseoul3160]

DaveinSeoul:

Both are nice, interesting examples of the Victory. Thank you for contributing the data on your revolvers for the Victory Model Database. I can add a few comments to your post.

1. It is unknown precisely what the ISP abbreviation stands for but my guess would be either the Illinois State Police or the Illinois State Prison or Penitentiary. An earlier post indicated that there was no known use of the Victory by the Illinois State Police, which might give more credence to Illinois State Penitentiary as being the ultimate recipient/end user.

2. At present the Database shows 9 examples that are marked ISP on the left side of the frame. Those that have factory letters all show shipment to the Illinois State Armory.

3. The Database also shows 3 examples that are marked ISPS on the backstrap. 2 of the 3 examples have factory letters, both of which show shipment to the Illinois State Armory. The significance of the S in ISPS is unknown to me. My initial guess was "Illinois State Prison System", but limited searching has not confirmed that supposition.

4. The Illinois State Armory was the site where the Illinois National Guard, among other state organizations, was headquartered. However, since the IL NG was federalized during WW2 it had vacated the premises. Nonetheless, the Illinois Reserve Militia was reactivated in place of the departed National Guard and acted under the command of state, not Federal, authorities during the War. It, too, was headquartered at the Illinois State Armory during the War. Thus, I believe it is not the case that these Illinois revolvers were ever the property of or issued to the Illinois National Guard.

5. The W mark observed on the butts of the Illinois and other Victory revolvers was a S&W factory applied marking. Its precise meaning remains unknown. This marking is generally found scattered through the serial number range of roughly V450000 to V540000.

6. In addition to the shipment of March 22, 1944 of 10 units at least two other shipments of the Victory to the Illinois State Armory are recorded in the Database. They occurred on 1/22/44 and 1/31/44.

7. The only other known civilian recipient of the W marked Victory revolvers was the U.S. Maritime Commission. Those guns shipped to a variety of warehouses and shipyards but all were addressed to the U.S. Maritime Commission. Note that there are many recorded U.S. Maritime Commission revolvers without the W mark. No Victory Model revolvers are recorded in the Database as having shipped to the War Shipping Administration.

8. You mentioned the OSS. Your revolver will not letter as having shipped to the OSS. I would encourage you to get a factory letter from the S&WHF when the moratorium on them is lifted.

I hope these comments are helpful to you and contribute to your understanding of the history of your Victory revolvers.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

Charlie, can't thank you enough for your long and incredibly informative post. I'm always thrilled to learn, even more so on a site such as this....where folks show a true dedication to educating others and passing their knowledge. I fully intend to obtain a letter for this one in 2022. Thank you again, Dave

 

[Absalom]

.

I suspect the Victory model shipped to the Illinois State Armory was for use by the Illinois National Guard but with the ISP markings I wonder if the National Guard transferred the revolver to the ISP or if the ISP was able to directly order a Victory from S&W. It would be interesting to file a request under the freedom of information act on the serial number of that revolver.

The Illinois State Police was founded in 1922 but I'm not aware of the ISP issuing any Victory model S&W revolvers. Most of the old pictures I've seen of Troopers in that era carried 5" or 6" revolvers and were purchased by the individual Officer. The ISP stamping on the receiver is consistent with how the Illinois State Police marked their weapons. I wonder if this revolver was used for training or issued by the ISP.

It is important to reiterate that those Victorys marked ISP, as well as the others mentioned stamped ISPS, some of which have been lettered and which shipped to the Illinois State Armory, did letter as DSC contract guns. That is the strongest argument against any military purpose and for a law enforcement or corrections use.

Vascar2 notes above that the ISP officers of the time carried guns that were individually purchased. One needs to remember that there were no service caliber revolvers to be individually purchased from early 1942 to sometime in 1946. Unless you bought one off a private owner or retiring officer, Victorys or Commandos ordered by the agency through the DSC were the only option for new officers to get revolvers.

 

[daveinseoul3160]

Total Speculation on my part, but could the ISP mark equate to a training cycle weapon for State Police Academy? Given the known dates of shipments to the Armory were in early-mid 1944, I could see the need for a set of revolvers specifically for use during new officer training. As the preferred Trooper carry gun of the day was a longer barrel / personally procured .38, the Victory would've been similar and one of the few available options for trainee use at the Academy...