U.S. Marked 38 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model Test?

[Greg_Salyer_13]

Do I have what I think I have? Is this one of the 100? The serial number is the correct range of 41333-41470.

I cannot get the trigger to pull, but otherwise it looks to be in great condition. If it were a normal Top Break, I would open it myself and see if I could fix the trigger pull issue but if this is what I think it is, I will want an expert to work on it. The finish seems to be all original.

What do you think the condition rates? Do you think it is real? How do I get it "Factory Lettered"?

 

[DWalt]

It's a late second (or third) model, ca. 1890. I don't know about the U.S. marking. But I guess it is possible that the Army may have used it. The gap along the sideplate-frame boundary seems excessive and suggests refinishing. Not conclusive, but the rest of it also looks a little soft. Most would want to examine it first-hand to determine if it appears to have been refinished. It would definitely be worthwhile to letter it, if for no other reason than to find out if it was originally one of the government test guns.

SEE: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/181049-u-s-marked-38-safety-hammerless-3rd-model.html

Also: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mi...t of Smith & Wesson Safety hammerless&f=false

 

[glowe]

I agree with DWalt on the refinish, since there is not a sharp edge to be found. I also vote for cold blue finish, but that may be a non-issue if it is found to be one of one hundred. I see steel shims on the cylinder stop, which were not done until 1889. You did not include the serial number, but the Second Model ran to sn 42,483 in 1890. The Second Model is correct for military testing that was ordered in 1890. The test guns were numbered within the serial number range of 41,333 to 41,470.

I would say you do have one of the test guns if the serial number is within the above range. Of course anyone could stamp US, but if the numbers are right, it is very likely yours is solid. Still, the letter will definitely add value and credibility to your 38 Safety.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

The darker spots along the sideplate are excess oil. These make the sideplate seem to have a gap but I think it looks right in person. Here is another picture with the oil wiped off. And yes, the serial number is within that range. I was not sure if it was a good ideal to post my serial number online or not.

What do you mean by a "sharp edge to be found"?

 

[glowe]

I thought I had remembered a book that detailed this military testing and just located it in "Smith & Wesson Handguns" by McHenry & Roper, 1958. It is a very interesting section where the government tested 100 S&W New Departures against 100 Colt Hand Ejectors in 38 Long Colt. Short story was that Colt won the contract.

The tests were first conducted for accuracy, penetration, and speed of reloading. S&W won the accuracy and speed of loading but Colt won the penetration tests. The next series of tests were adding dust to the guns as they were fired without cleaning and the Colt refused to work first. Next they were stripped of all oil and immersed in a solution of sal-ammonia for 10 minutes and left exposed for 48 hours and shot. The same test was redone and it was found that the S&W mainspring was broken and the gun was badly rusted. The top break mechanism had to be opened with a mallet and the safety lever would not operate. Colt was well rusted, but operated freely after a mallet was used to open the cylinder.

So my assumption is that there were only 99 left after testing and Colt became the official sidearm of the US Army.

Just saw your 2nd post. The sideplate seam on an original S&W will be almost invisible and the edges of the metal will have very sharp shoulders and edges, unlike your revolver. Still a great find.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

How do I get it "Factory Lettered"?

What do you think the condition would rate?

 

[glowe]

Letter request form is located below:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/185369-factory-letter-request-form.html

Condition is probably Fair to Good, but the rarity of your revolver will command a value that will far exceed any standard 38 Safety. Rock Island had one at auction in April that I think was estimated at $3000+/-. Your might be able to find the sale price of that gun on the RIA website.

 

[Masterpiece]

How do I get it "Factory Lettered"?

Greg,

Here's the Link to download & print out the Application for a Factory Letter!!

http://www.theswca.org/forms/Letter_request_form.doc

Just fill in all the pertinent info where asked (Serial No., Barrel Length, Finish, Etc. & make sure you send photos!! Also, even if you send photos, make sure you mention that it's "U.S. Marked" under Unusual or Non-Standard Features...Wouldn't hurt to make note of that in the Add'l Comments Block as well!!

I'd also like to add that I feel somewhat assured it's going to "Letter" as being Correct by what I'm seeing!! Good Luck & please let us know the outcome when the Letter arrives!!

 

[Masterpiece]

Rock Island had one at auction in April that I think was estimated at $3000+/-. You might be able to find the sale price of that gun on the RIA website.

Greg,

Gary (glowe) was a tad low on the Pre-Auction Estimate...it was estimated at $6000-$9000...Sold for $6325!! Here's the Auction Link if you want to take a look!!

Ultra Rare and Highly Desirable U.S. Smith & Wesson 38 Safety Hammerless Army Test Revolver with Factory Letter

 

[mmaher94087]

OK, Ok, slow the feeding frenzy. I feel/hope your U.S. Safety Hammerless is legit. But, there are more serial numbers than 100 in the range specified for these U.S. Army Test Revolvers and I know that there is at least one that is a fake, and a very good one at that. Had Roy not stepped in during the time of the auction to say that the serial number was not a test revolver number, I probably would have paid big bucks for a fake.

As glowe pointed out, these tests were brutal and, when the tests were completed, most of these revolvers did not work and were junked. The remaining were auctioned off. Those auctioned were of questionable quality and reliability. After the repeated Sal Ammoniac - rust test; not many survived. The revolver had to many precision, delicate parts. To find a specimen with 60% original finish is very uncommon. Most are arrested rust.

Looking at the pictures of your revolver, I'd bet that it is original but I also think that it has been cold blued at some point probably because of damage done by the tests. The cold blue is more pleasing to the eye than rust. These revolvers were horribly treated and the effects of the testing didn't show up for years as moisture in the air activated the residual chemicals. Mike #283

 

[glowe]

Greg,

Gary (glowe) was a tad low on the Pre-Auction Estimate...it was estimated at $6000-$9000...Sold for $6325!! Here's the Auction Link if you want to take a look!

Thanks for the correction. I was going by memory and that is never a good idea for me.

 

[Masterpiece]

Thanks for the correction. I was going by memory and that is never a good idea for me.

Gary,

No problem...Truth be told...I had to go back & take a look myself...Ha!!~Ha!! Reason being, my memory's not what it used to be, but thought I remembered the Pre-Auction Est. to be quite a bit more than you stated & wanted to give the OP an idea of how much these can bring "If Original"!!

 

[DWalt]

"As glowe pointed out, these tests were brutal and, when the tests were completed, most of these revolvers did not work and were junked."

The 1890 test report does not indicate that all of these revolvers were used up in the initial torture and performance testing. Probably only a few were. The rest were most likely issued to troops for field trials under operational conditions. Unfortunately, I have not seen any information about that, but they could have gone through a rough life there also.

 

[John H]

Hi,

I have a Walther P88 and read that during the testing for a replacment for 1911, some pistols were tested for accuracy, some in the corrosion test and others for take-down/assembly ease ect.

It could be that in 1890 not all U.S. S&W Safety Hammerless revolvers were tested to near destruction.

Just a thought......

-John

 

[DWalt]

There is extensive information available about the various Army trials that took place over a five-year period leading up to the adoption of the Model 1911. Those included numerous instances of issuance of the candidate pistols to various units for field testing under actual use conditions in order to get valuable performance feedback from the troops. It is almost certain the same practice was followed concerning the safety hammerless revolver. It's likely that the great majority of the 100 revolvers were used for such field trials, and only a few were tested to destruction.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

If I decide to sell it, where is the best place to sell something like this?

 

[opoefc]

At a good auction, however you should first get the factory letter to prove the US marking is real, if you want top dollar. If it does not letter as a US gun, then it's just another refinished Safety hammerless, worth maybe $200, or so, if you can get it to function correctly. If it's the real deal, you should be able to negotiate a "No fee to the seller contract" as it would be a primo piece for the auction. Ed.

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

Thanks! What are the good auctions?

 

[Greg_Salyer_13]

BTW, the trigger pull issue was very minor. The casing extractor was not screwed up tight causing the cylinder to fit too tight. It is working perfect now.

 

[glowe]

Thanks! What are the good auctions?

There are lost of big gun auction houses out there. Rock Island is one of the largest and if it proves to be a US tested gun, they would probably get top dollar. Problem is their seller fees are high.

James Julia, Montrose, Echos of Glory, Little John's, and the list goes on. Check their past auctions, sellers fees, and talk with them direct before making a decision.

I agree that a $50 factory letter may bring huge dividends if proven to be legit.