Unhappy with Accuracy

[TwoPoundPull]

Attempting to develope a steel knockdown and silhouette load reaching out up to 50yd. Looking for 12-1300 fps.

686 and 627 x 6 w/dot
Laser Cast 158 SWC's
Win .357 Brass
WSPM
2400
COL 1.606
Firm crimp in cannular

Using Redding Measure, Dillon dies/650, RCBS 5-0-5 scale....

Started at 12gn, worked up to 15.......
5 shot average
12gn 1154 fps
12.5gn 1180
13gn 1193
13.5gn 1230
14gn 1281
14.5gn 1315
-Stop-

Shooting off a bag at 50' I had one good 5 shot group at 14.2, the second opened up.....
Best average results were at 14.4 to 14.6
I believe I should be able to make one ragged hole at that distance before I start reaching out to 50yd.
I'd be happy with consistent 1" groups, not 1" then 2" to 2 1/4"........

Thanks

 

[Treeman]

Switch to standard primers...they tend to give better accuracy with 2400. It doesn't sound like your loads are actually bad but if they are not what you want and you and the gun are capable of better you will likely find it with the standard primers and 2400.

 

[arjay]

I'd start by dropping a bullet through all the charge holes to check for fit,but I think the groups would be much larger if that was it.Try a different primer and then a different powder.

 

[Rule3]

Got a bore light? Check if you are leaded up.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I would like to know what the hardness of the bullets is. If you are in the velocity range you state with bullets that are too hard, that would pose a problem. What size are they? How do they fit your cylinder/bore? What happens if you use a faster powder? Can you get better accuracy? Take Bullseye for instance. The maximum load for that weight of bullet is 4.8gr. Do you have any Unique? The maximum load for that weight of bullet is 6.0gr.

Just for hoops and hallars, try one of these loads if you have these powders and see what happens to accuracy using the same bullets.

If it was me, I would use a 38spl +P load only in 357Mag cases. (Maybe add .2gr or so for the extra case length) Just me though.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

Treeman - Tried CCI 500's and Win Standard....
arjay - Won't drop thru, won't push thru, broke pencil....
Rule 3 - Good thought, but clean....
Skip - The Laser Cast has a BHN of 24, have tried Missouri at a BHN of 18, .358 dia, will not push thru throats or bore, tried 231, will
exceed safe to reach power factor, 5.0gn max as per Winchester....

Have had good results with 2400 and jacketed, better than 296....

 

[arjay]

What do those bullets measure?

 

[Treeman]

Okay, you've played with primers and 2400. I suggest that you might try 8.2 grains of 800X and standard primers(you'll have some room to work up but that should put you around 1200fps) My guns like that one.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

What do those bullets measure?

.358 - .3585

 

[arjay]

Have you tried shooting them at slower velocities,say 800-900 fps?I'm just wondering if they are that tight in the cylinder and the barrel is 357 or more, maybe they arent engaging the rifling like they should,especially at the speed you are trying for?

 

[scooter123]

I'm going to ask how you are shooting off the bag. If you are resting the barrel on a sandbag, DON'T do that, the barrel won't ring true and it will result in much larger groups. I found that out by doing it and it basically doubled the group size. What has worked well for me is to jam my hand and the trigger guard into the sandbag. However doing that will throw the sighting off slightly because the recoil won't be managed in the same was as shooting without a support. More recently I've taken to planting the heels of my hands on the bag because that allows the same sight picture as shooting without a support. While the groups do open up a bit it's not enough that I'm concerned. I'll also note that I haven't found red dot sights to be really useful past about 40 yards, when I'm shooting beyond that I use a scope with some magnification.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

arjay - As for reduced velocities....Scenario....On the line of a steel knockdown match, you shoot, gun goes bang, target reacts with a "tink" and doesn't move....You're allready on the next target when you notice the previous target still standing....Swing you sights back, shoot again, Bang-Tink.....Bang-Tink.....Bang-Tink.....The entire group of competitors thouht it was quite amusing.....My thoughts were, we need to bump this up a little......

Scooter - Holding the gun two hands, just as if shooting freestyle, on my knees, resting the heel of hand and gun butt on a rolled up piece of carpet just for support. Using the dot at 50'.

 

[arjay]

What I was after,was seeing if those bullets are stripping the rifling.My thinking is those chamber mouths are too tight and in effect,you are shooting an undersized bullet.

 

[Treeman]

Arjay. I doubt that he is 'stripping"-the groups aren't that large and he isn't reporting a leading problem. One other thing to do is shoot at longer distance. While we normally think of groups increasing in spread proportionate to increases in distance, 50 feet is pretty short-It isn't unheard of to have similar groups at double the distance compared to a short range grouping----sometimes the spinning projectile has to "go to sleep" in flight (remember spinning tops as a kid?)

 

[Fkimble]

What was the load you were using when you got the "tinks" and no failing targets?

I use the Laser Cast 158's for one of my heavy loads, 13.5 2400, the other is the Bayou 158s, 7.0 grains of Unique for my daily carry when not huntin bear. Someone said 6.0 Unique was max but I take exception with that, Max is more like 8.0.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

The top pictures are the test targets with the 2400 and 158 LC's at 50'...
The bottom picture is a B3 target shot at 50yd, same gun, same Ultra Dot 30mm, same piece of carpet for a rest, with 148gn HBWC over 231...
The HB's will make one small hole in paper over 3.2-3.4gn 231 at 50'...

Fkimble - 158gn Missorui SWC over 4gn 231 w/ WSPM's .357 brass....
"They're pretty big tombstones"

 

[scooter123]

Looking at your results I'm seeing a lot of promise between 14.8 and 15.0. Lots of cloverleafing and that's indication that the shooter is at fault. I also agree with others that you need to do some testing at longer ranges. Many times I'll shoot tighter groups at 35-40 yards than I do at 25 yards because I have a mindset that 25 yards is easy so I just don't pay attention as closely as I should. When the range gets longer I do a much better job of concentrating.

I'll also say that IMO those 2 groups you shot at 15.0 indicate that you are already there. Those look to be about 1 inch groups which would translate to 3 inches at 50 yards. If those tombstones are 8 inches or more in width a 3 inch group should do the job.

 

[m657]

are you the only one having 'tink' issues?

Is this recent degrading of previous 'good results'?

I guess I'm confused.....are you not satisfied with the groups you posted, or that the 'tink' doesn't knock down the target?

 

[TwoPoundPull]

M657 - I shoot steel indoors in Ct. am the only shooter using a roller, everyone else using bottom feeders, tricked out race guns (Call them "Razors, and "Cats" and such) launching jacketed rounds down range at velocities where the bullet disintegrates on impact...The guys affectionately call mine "ashtrays" as they bounce back at me....There are a handfull of large and heavy tombstones on the course that require a high hit to knock down, those are my "tink" targets...
Recent results...No...Have been avoiding those targets, don't think I need to...Have reached what I think is the safe threshold for faster burning powders, have had very good luck with 2400 and jacketed...Very tight groups at distance with XTP's, 158's in 357, 240's in 44, 215's in 41 and 250's in 45 colt. Thought I could come close with the Laser Cast which I consider a very good bullet. There was this guy named Elmer, he had real good results with this "Kieth" style SWC and 2400...
And no, I'm not satisfied with the groups I'm getting...For me 49% of this sport is reloading...I shoot silhouettes in Vt. if I can't create a cast round that will give me a 1 to 2 inch group at 50yd at a velocity that will not lead the bbl, I'll go back to jacketed...Just hoping to pay less and shoot more.....