Use of manuals

mikld

mikld

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This may sound like a rant from a grouchy old f___!, but isn't really. From the number of posts "what powder for xxx?", "is this load ok?", "what primers do I use with xxx?" and "is this load safe?", I'm wondering; how many of the reloaders on this forum, new and experienced, do not use a published reloading manual? :confused: Or for that matter, any reloading manual?
 
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I always like to hope it's just asking for verification of a published load in a certain gun. I have half a dozen load books, a couple of the free powder company pamphlets, and I check the powder company website and I still like to ask if something seems off.

Example:

I know 2400 isn't listed as needing a magnum primer and none of my books say to use one. So I had to break down and ask why several old timers told me to use one anyways. I started using them and with my hand held up in the Cub Scout salute I can swear I get better ignition which I can only verify by having only the most minimal powder residue left behind. And yet once again it says it isn't needed....
 
I'm not sure what your definition of a "published reloading manual" is, but many of them are over rated and largely misunderstood. But I do wonder too how many have reloading manuals that they never read, other than the data sections, because many of the questions asked here are answered in any good reloading manual.

While I have a bookcase dedicated to handloading information, I have also loaded thousands of rounds using nothing but the load chart that comes with Lee dies, and never had a problem.
 
My friend who advised me when I first started hand loading told me that a good manual was a required piece of loading equipment. I bought the 3rd Edition Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual and found it so informative that I read it cover to cover. Twenty years later I have at least a dozen manuals.

Some questions presented here are obviously coming from completely lost folks.

I would not think twice about posting a question here asking what's the best home defense load for a .40 S&W. I have the dies and loaded a couple of hundred practice rounds for my 89 year old Dad 10 or 15 years ago. Last year he told me that he did not feel comfortable with his Glock .40 and I swapped him out my Model 67.

I believe the collective wisdom of a forum like this could put me on to good load ideas quickly, which I could confirm as comfortable by further book work. We all started with our own ideas about hand loading and probably had what appeared as stupid questions ourselves.

Although I have been tempted to post... 'What does your reloading manual say about doing that?' to some questions I've seen.
 
I've kept my old Speer #9 manual for its "How to" info. Many of the powders listed are now obsolete and newer cartridges have come to the market that it does not list. For much of my data now I refer to the powder makers load data. I never take any load data as an absolute. Each manual has its limitations.
 
"Published Reloading Manual" as those published and sold by bullet manufacturers (Barns, Hornady, Sierra, etc.), powder manufacturers (Allient, Accutate, Ramshot, etc.), and generic manuals (Lyman, and even Lee). Your Lee Chart supplied with dies and a dipper would be considered, as this example, a "manual".

All the info I needed to assemble safe, accurate ammo, since '86, has come from a published reloading manual. Prior to that I used Lee dippers with Lee's charts.

I pay very little attention to any forum "Expert", Gun Shop Guru, Range Rat, or gun counter clerk, but there seems to be a lot of reloaders (mostly new) that do.. Not that their suggestions are necessarily malicious, just that I've read/heard some really wild/even dangerous "pet loads".
 
I bought an rcbs reloading package back in the early 80s and learned how to reload from the Speer # 10 manual.When I started with lead bullets I picked up a Lyman #46 and went from there.
The only other reloaders I've met were the guys on my trap team way back when and a few old timers who would be in their 90s now.I didn't think it was hard to learn how and I haven't blown anything up yet ;-)
 
I started reloading earlier this year. After reading forums, blogs, reloading equipment manufacturer's website info and more, I bought 3 manuals, Lee, Sierra, and Hornady. And found the powder manufacturer's data bases on line.

What confused me the most was the significant discrepancies between minimum and maximum safe loads. I never expected that kind of issue to pop up. I think this is an area for legitimate questions from newbies.

Another legitimate area for questions . . . my three manuals did not list the exact bullets I was using. How to interpolate?

Finally, I think its legitimate for a new guy to ask "What's the most accurate _____ (bullet, powder, charge, combo)?" Surely someone can save me a lot of time and money trying all the available combinations. Unfortunately, "probably not" doesn't occur to them until (depending on the forum, of course) they are bombarded with insults for asking the question lol.

As an aside, if you think the reloading questions are bad, you ought to visit the tech sites where complete non-techs have bought computer parts and are asking for someone to give them the overclocking settings.

Sometimes they don't know what they don't know, sometimes they are part of a society used to having everything handed to them, and sometimes they are just lazy.
 
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Knowledge pilferers??

One of things that always has been a traditional and unique part of the shooting/gun hobby is sharing information, knowledge and experience (largely with no pre-conditions needing to be met before doing so) with those that ask a question.

Why even join a forum in the first place, if sharing knowledge and experience feels "bothersome".

Just saying that the concept of "knowledge pilfering" feels oddly placed within a public forum, involving a hobby that has a history of experience and knowledge freely being passed down/shared with others by veterans of this hobby and from other old "gas passers", such as the likes of Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan and many others that have gone before us.
 
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Like Twoboxer I have found discrepancies from manual to manual, some of which were large. I have checked online and asked questions on other forums and have also gotten answers that did not jive with each other. I have used the Lyman reloading manual and the pamphlets which come with my lee dies and have had no troubles; those two are fairly close on their load data. Still, it's troubling that someone might go with a given manual, forum data or best friend advice without it being seconded and get into trouble!
 
It's not only "using" the manuals like a recipe cookbook it is actually READING the information before the load data.

Kinda why I posted the old thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/283621-re-posting-thread-please-do-some-work.html

Anyone can read the data, but to read and understand what's going on is a whole different story.

Many People dislike say the Lee Manual, but if you read (like a book) the first few sections Mr Lee has a lot of information on pressure and development. Sure he promotes his products but it's his book so why not. The load data is just compiled from other sources.Speer or Hornady do the same thing.
 
I started reloading earlier this year. After reading forums, blogs, reloading equipment manufacturer's website info and more, I bought 3 manuals, Lee, Sierra, and Hornady. And found the powder manufacturer's data bases on line.

What confused me the most was the significant discrepancies between minimum and maximum safe loads. I never expected that kind of issue to pop up. I think this is an area for legitimate questions from newbies.

Another legitimate area for questions . . . my three manuals did not list the exact bullets I was using. How to interpolate?
Click to expand...

This question comes from both novice and "experienced" handloaders. The problem is that they do not know what loading manuals really are. In short, they are not recipe books and the data they contain is not an absolute set of minimums and maximums. Quite the contrary. The data is a list of test results obtained with their specific lot of components fired on specific days under specific atmospheric conditions at a specific elevation above sea level using specific sets of test equipment (which includes firearms, test barrels and fixtures). The lab tech's with tell you that they cannot exactly reproduce these results on another day keeping everything else the same. It is unreasonable for the end users of this data to expect an exact duplication also. This, among other things, is the reason data varies between manuals. The cause is obvious IF you understand what you're dealing with. It is also the reason there basic commandments in handloading such as Rule #1-start low and work up.

I see all manner of threads on every board saying essentially this: "I have xxx grain bullet such & such & I cannot find load data for it. Help" The fact is that in all likelihood they do have useable data IF the loader follows Rule#1. As long as the bullets are similar in weight & shape and they follow Rule#1, there should be no issues. Another issue is COAL. In revolver rounds, it's actually a non issue when using any bullet intended for use in that round which has a cannelure or crimp groove. In bottom feeder rounds, the correct COAL is the longest length which both fits in the magazine plus chambers & feeds reliably in YOUR gun. You must do something called load development for YOUR gun by experimenting with the COAL while using the minimum charge which will operate the action. After the length is nailed down, the work on charge weights begin. The COAL listed for autoloader ammo in loading manuals does not guarantee functionality. Quite the opposite as all the printed disclaimers in the book will tell you. It is there merely to qualify the conditions under which the printed data was obtained and nothing further. It may or may not reflect SAAMI maximum cartridge specifications.

Trying to shortcut the process is asking for trouble as is just cranking out ammo like an automaton without really understanding exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish. How many threads have you seen where somebody has to dismantle fairly large quantities of ammo because the copied somebody else's work only to find that the results were less than satisfactory. Construction workers say "measure twice to cut only once". Many handloaders, not so much.

Do some thinking and grasp what the numbers really mean before you jump in with both feet. Do your own load development and be safe.

;);)

Bruce
 
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Reloading is pretty much like everything else in life: you accumulate information from any available source, evaluate it, and make a decision as to which sources to trust and what to do. In 50+ years at work I "stole" ideas anywhere I could, but, most were discarded when evaluated within the context of my system of doing things.
Most people are just looking for a place to get started, but as stated above, some are just lazy.
I tend to just skip postings that start with "What load", "Which is best" and "?".
 
My response (or non-response) depends on how the question is phrased. It's fairly easy to figure out if you have a semi-experienced reloader that is lazy and just trying to mine data or a newcomer that truly needs help.

Usually in both cases, they are trying to save time and/or money without doing the work. The work is where the knowledge is developed. Lack of knowledge will get you hurt.
 
As previously noted, it is not unusual to find significant variances in maximum and minimum loads for a given cartridge-bullet-powder combination among manuals. I think the information put out by all of the powder suppliers is the most reliable, but I have always liked and trusted the Lyman manuals also, as they have been publishing their manuals longer than anyone else. Those are all I use. I think the Lee reloading manual is mainly a compilation of data provided by the various powder and bullet companies, and not independently determined by Lee.
 
mikld said:
"Published Reloading Manual" as those published and sold by bullet manufacturers (Barns, Hornady, Sierra, etc.), powder manufacturers (Allient, Accutate, Ramshot, etc.), and generic manuals (Lyman, and even Lee). Your Lee Chart supplied with dies and a dipper would be considered, as this example, a "manual".

All the info I needed to assemble safe, accurate ammo, since '86, has come from a published reloading manual. Prior to that I used Lee dippers with Lee's charts.

I pay very little attention to any forum "Expert", Gun Shop Guru, Range Rat, or gun counter clerk, but there seems to be a lot of reloaders (mostly new) that do.. Not that their suggestions are necessarily malicious, just that I've read/heard some really wild/even dangerous "pet loads".
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, I've encountered many forum experts that feel the only real reloading manuals are the big expensive versions from the various bullet and equipment manufacturers, and the free print or downloadable-pdf "guides" from the powder manufacturers are not adequate.

When I first started reloading I didn't have a manual of any kind and learned from the directions that came with the RCBS equipment I bought. The gunstore owner helped me pick out loads from manuals behind the counter for the calibers I was shooting at the time, .38 spl., .357 magnum and .41 magnum, and that was all I had for several years of shooting. Because of this I am hesitant to tell anyone that they "need" a manual for every purpose.

As my reloading interests changed from a cost saving burden to a main hobby and then into an obsession, I read everything I can find on the subject, both in print and in digital formats.

Now, what scares me more than the questions from beginners about what load to use is some of the answers, statements and advice given by "internet experts" on the more serious questions. And I'm not just referring to loading data, such as "THE LOAD" and "I only use Speer no. 8".
 
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OK, so far a lot of answers from reloaders that do use manuals. So, back to my original question, are there any here who do not use manuals for reloading data?

Regardless of "discrepensies", so called "lawyered down" data, and brand loyalty, do some of you only get your data from other sources? Mebbe gun magazines? Reloading web sites?

FWIW I get all the info I need to produce safe, accurate ammo for my manuals, and have for mebbe 30+ years...
 
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