Victory data base

[Mike in Wis.]

Excellent discussion Kevin, and exactly what I thought as well. Interestingly, the U.S.M.C. #55 engraved on the back strap of my revolver is believed to be authentic. There are two other revolvers known that were delivered at the same time that are also engraved in exactly the same manner... but with different numbers. I suspect they were the badge numbers of the Bethlehem plant guards these were issued to.

I do have Pate's book...

Mike

 

[GCSO584]

I have one I'd like to add to the list please. V621932, P mark upper left side of frame near hammer, ordnance fire bomb on bottom of butt before the V, no property marking on top strap. Serial number matches on frame, barrel and cylinder.
38 Special

 

[Absalom]

Excellent discussion Kevin, and exactly what I thought as well. Interestingly, the U.S.M.C. #55 engraved on the back strap of my revolver is believed to be authentic. There are two other revolvers known that were delivered at the same time that are also engraved in exactly the same manner... but with different numbers. I suspect they were the badge numbers of the Bethlehem plant guards these were issued to.

I do have Pate's book...

Mike

Last night I had the unexpected opportunity to peruse a friend's copy of the new 2015 edition of Charles Pate's book (I'm ordering my own copy forthwith).

I was pleased to see that Mr. Pate confirms my main contentions, namely that

1. the DSC didn't loan guns, it sold them. There really is no room for interpretation in the word "resold", and the term "Commercial Sales" in Mike's letter means exactly what it says.

2. the USMC marking on Mike's gun is of dubious authenticity or at best unconfirmable. I'm not sure by whom, according to Mike, the engraving "is believed to be authentic", but Pate lists USMC markings only under "possible fakes" in his list of Victory markings.

I've attached the pertinent passages from the book for your convenience.

 

[DWalt]

It would be interesting to look at the DSC documentation from WWII. It has always appeared to me that DSC operated much as a retailer, as it had arrangements with several manufacturers to purchase guns, which it then re-sold to qualified purchasers, quite possibly adding a small mark-up to cover direct DSC expenses involved in the transactions.

 

[kwill1911]

Absalom, et al,

I apologize for taking us further down this rabbit trail but you've made an absolute statement that isn't true: "1. the DSC didn't loan guns, it sold them. There really is no room for interpretation in the word "resold", and the term "Commercial Sales" in Mike's letter means exactly what it says."

When you get your Pate book you'll want to read Chapter 3 where he talks about inspection and acceptance markings. He points out that weapons purchased for the DSC were usually not marked "U.S." or "U.S. PROPERTY." This created a minor problem when the DSC did, in fact, loan the guns to a defense plant for guard use because the contractor was obligated to turn the revolvers over to the government at the end of the contract. These guns would come back to U.S. government ownership without the requisite property markings. The Ordnance Department developed guidelines for how to get the appropriate markings on such guns. The letter I posted is evidence that Bethlehem Steel never owned the guns and they acknowledged the obligation to return them to the Navy when the contract was completed. Perhaps Roy's wording is throwing you off a bit but I believe all sales to the DSC were considered "commercial."

 

[Biginge]

V109586 Born Date?

Morning gents,

I picked this one up last week. It is a Lend Lease 38/200. Each cylinder is crown over bnp marked as well as the Bbl. (5 inch). It will not chamber a .38 spl. Has the P by the ordnance flaming bomb on butt. As well as WB Waldomer Bromeher (that close). All numbers match except there is nothing on either grip panel. Butt, bbl. flat, crane, cylinder, and back of ejector star. "United State Property" on left top strap. I am hoping someone can give me a mfg. date for this one. A birth year 1942 would be great. If Oct. 1942 my search for a month and year would be complete. It has been around the block a few times but mechanically, very sound. Will shoot it tomorrow.

Any and all help appreciated. Thanks in advance. V109586.

 

[ordnanceguy]

. I am hoping someone can give me a mfg. date for this one. A birth year 1942 would be great. If Oct. 1942 my search for a month and year would be complete.

Hi Bill:

Based on the info in the Victory Model Database, which is administered by my pal LWCmdr45 and me, your revolver likely shipped in the late September to early October, 1942 time frame. Any more precision on the date will require a factory letter from Roy Jinks.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

 

[Biginge]

Thanks Charlie. This one will be about as close to 10/09/1942 as I can get. I now have my "birthday gun. Appreciate your help.

 

[LOBO]

SV pre-fix Victory model...any & all information appreciated.

SV 788548
4"
.38 special

 

[Absalom]

Absalom, et al,

I apologize for taking us further down this rabbit trail but you've made an absolute statement that isn't true: "1. the DSC didn't loan guns, it sold them. ......"

When you get your Pate book you'll want to read Chapter 3 where he talks about inspection and acceptance markings. He points out that weapons purchased for the DSC were usually not marked "U.S." or "U.S. PROPERTY." .......
The letter I posted is evidence that Bethlehem Steel never owned the guns and they acknowledged the obligation to return them to the Navy when the contract was completed. Perhaps Roy's wording is throwing you off a bit but I believe all sales to the DSC were considered "commercial."

Kevin:

I'm looking at the page in Pate's book you're referencing, and I admit that my statement as I worded it is too absolute.

However, I think Pate's wording makes it clear that the gun we dealt with here does not fall under the exception. You will notice Pate stating that this pertains to those guns NOT purchased by DSC directly from the manufacturer, but purchased "by the Army for the DSC" and "ultimately charged to the government contract"; those were the mostly unmarked guns which had to be returned to the Army, and which the Army apparently then didn't know what to do with.

Mike's letter from Roy makes clear, however, that the guns for Bethlehem were part of the direct DSC contract, not the Army contract, so this gun would not have been affected.

In regards to the letter you posted, there is no doubt at all that you are correct, but there is no evidence that this transaction is in any way related to the DSC. In October 1941, the US wasn't even at war yet. That may just have been a local Baltimore arrangement.

Did you notice the other thread on the possible USMC Victory? I may have to modify my statement of doubt about the authenticity of the USMC stamping also. It'll be interesting to see a photo to compare to Mike's marking.

 

[brix47]

1943 Victory

Here is my Victory that I inherited from my Great uncle and came from his uncle that lived and worked in California.

Serial #V482641
38 S&W Special

Looks to be all original.

 

[ordnanceguy]

SV pre-fix Victory model...any & all information appreciated.

SV 788548
4"
.38 special

Hi Lobo:

Are there any left top strap markings?

 

[kwill1911]

Kevin:

I'm looking at the page in Pate's book you're referencing, and I admit that my statement as I worded it is too absolute.

However, I think Pate's wording makes it clear that the gun we dealt with here does not fall under the exception. You will notice Pate stating that this pertains to those guns NOT purchased by DSC directly from the manufacturer, but purchased "by the Army for the DSC" and "ultimately charged to the government contract"; those were the mostly unmarked guns which had to be returned to the Army, and which the Army apparently then didn't know what to do with.

Mike's letter from Roy makes clear, however, that the guns for Bethlehem were part of the direct DSC contract, not the Army contract, so this gun would not have been affected.

In regards to the letter you posted, there is no doubt at all that you are correct, but there is no evidence that this transaction is in any way related to the DSC. In October 1941, the US wasn't even at war yet. That may just have been a local Baltimore arrangement.

Did you notice the other thread on the possible USMC Victory? I may have to modify my statement of doubt about the authenticity of the USMC stamping also. It'll be interesting to see a photo to compare to Mike's marking.

I'm OK if we agree to disagree. I'll continue to study.

 

[DWalt]

SV pre-fix Victory model...any & all information appreciated.

SV 788548
4"
.38 special

Yours appears to be the military version of the Victory SV series, and likely shipped in early 1945. It should have a U. S. PROPERTY stamping on the topstrap if military. The S in SV indicates the new hammer block safety design, which also began in early 1945. Quite a few M&Ps with the SV-prefix SN were made up from parts in S&W inventory at war's end and sold on the U. S. civilian market in early 1946. Those were blued, not phosphate, as yours is. Original and correct military grips would be smooth wood with round tops, not the target grips on yours.

By the way, those diamond football target grips are from pre-1969, and do have some value.

 

[sojo1993]

Victory Model Birth Date

What can you tell me about my pistol. I just acquired a Smith and Wesson Victory Model in .38 Special with a four inch barrel and smooth grips. Marked with flaming bomb & US Property GHD on the top left strap. Serial Number V5909xx matching on frame, barrel and cylinder. It came with the holster shown...marked US, but left hand.

 

[Mike in Wis.]

A brother of my V495759 .... same style heel markings. Same location, same method and same nomenclature. Pretty similar... too similar to be coincidence or faked IMHO

If you don't want any back story on the USMC and California ship building stop reading here------------

I have been looking at microfilmed records of the US Maritime Commission. Lots of information on their acquisition orders for everything from steel to screws to wood decking and even the clocks and bunks obtained for the ships. Nothing specific to firearms found yet...

However, what I have found is that the US Maritime Commission contracted / partnered with numerous shipbuilding companies, essentially "taking them over", especially after the start of the War. They funded and built shipyards like Bethlehem -Alameda, no Bethlehem funds were used to build or equip the yard. USMC had on-site inspectors and administrators that had to approve every purchase for items Bethlehem wanted to order, except those purchased from non-contract sources via petty cash. In the various contracts I've found, it looks like whether the letter head said US Maritime Commission or Bethlehem Ship Building during that period of history... it was essentially the same entity, at least the entity paying the bills. Some of the same signatures appear signing under both letterheads. Used sort of interchangeably. Alameda was built specifically to start building a new, large, fast transport series of ships for the inevitable invasion of Japan.... the "Admiral" Series P2 Transport Ship. They completed their first ship in August 1944. The contracts for the ships were cancelled before they were all completed. Eight of 10 in the contract were built, the two others were cancelled but were built anyway after USMC relinquished control after the War by Bethlehem and were sold as passenger liners. At it's peak Alameda had 6200 employees, it's own on site housing, fire department, clinic / infirmary and police department. In addition, USMC actually had "Inspectors" aka "Special Agents" , employees of USMC that conducted investigations when necessary. It looks like most of their investigations were looking into large thefts of War materials, fraud and the like.

 

[DWalt]

I don't know anything about the workings of USMC, but it appears that there may have been two types of USMC revolvers - Those issued for shipboard use and those issued to security personnel at shipyards. It makes some sense that the latter may have property engravings similar to those shown, while the former did not. By the way, USMC also bought quite a few Colt revolvers in addition to the S&Ws.

 

[Mike in Wis.]

From my research the ships of the US Merchant Fleet were not issued firearms by the USMC. Prior to the formation of the US Navy Armed Guard, which was assigned to provide armed security and man the guns placed on Merchant vessels, only the Captain was allowed a handgun to "maintain order", which was often a personal purchase. There was no provision for crew personal or issued weapons, in fact they were against regulations.

Even after the formation of the US Navy Armed Guard Force (Nov 1941)assigned to Merchant vessels the crew was only officially instructed in the art of passing ammunition and assistants on anti-aircraft crews and other crew served gun skills. I have found nothing to indicate Merchant Sailors were issued personal firearms except perhaps those provided by members of the USN Armed Guard in an emergency. Of course, I'm sure there may have been exceptions. While the USN Armed Guard were initially issued Victory Models... they were all recalled by the Navy and replaced by Colt M1911A1 pistols. The Navy needed the Victory Models for issue to Navy and Marine aircrew due to a shortage of available revolvers. How large was the US Navy Armed Guard assigned to Merchant ships ? 144,900 men served on over 6,236 American and Allied ships. About 2,085 died in defense of their country, and at least 1,127 were wounded as a result of enemy action.

Interestingly, Merchant Marine members did not receive Veteran status for WW2 service until 1998 while the USN Armed Guard, being considered armed military combatants, received their status immediately. And, after 1998 WW2 Merchant Seaman can have a Coast Guard Honor Guard, where and when available, at their funeral.

 

[DWalt]

Pate's book supplies some information on U. S. Maritime Commission (USMC) revolvers, indicating that they were part of the ships' standard equipment, including ships transferred under the Lend-Lease Act, and that such revolvers were supplied to the USMC under Army contracts, possibly through DSC. Information is vague regarding the numbers of USMC's S&W revolvers, but it is stated that at least 8,996 .38 Special Colt Commando revolvers, the "plain-Jane" version of the Colt Official Police revolver, went to the U. S. Maritime Commission as small arms equipment for Lend-Lease ships, again made under Army contracts. I think the most likely possibility is that most of the many revolvers which went to USMC were used to equip Lend-Lease craft, and perhaps few or none to U. S.-flag cargo craft.

 

[Mike in Wis.]

I sought out two WW2 Merchant Marine sailors in the Veterans Home at King,WI. One crewed a Liberty Ship crossing the Atlantic and the other an Oiler in the Pacific. When I asked if they were issued firearms, both said no.... only the US Navy Armed Guards and ship's officers were issued firearms. Their weapons were kept secured in lockers and broken out only if needed. The guy that worked the Atlantic said that the Armed Guard always wore their .45 acp pistols when scrambling to their gun stations, but he never saw one with a rifle. Both these sailors were trained to pass ammunition and crew the anti-aircraft guns and heavy gun if a Navy man got hit. The fella that served In the Pacific did say some crew members had personal pistols they carefully had stashed, and that ships officers looked the other way. He said the Pacific had a different sort of enemy... so this was tolerated.

The USMC built about 6,000 ships from it's inception in 1937 to the last one launched in 1952, the majority set sail during our involvement in WW2. The 3 main types of ships built during the War (41-45) were 2700 Liberty Ships (authorized 44 crew, 12-25 USN Armed Guards, 1ea 4" stern gun, 2ea 37mm bow guns and 6ea 20mm AA machine guns)... 534 Victory Ships (authorized 44 crew, 17 USN Armed Guards, 1ea 5" stern gun, 1ea 3" bow gun and 8ea 20mm AA machineguns)... lastly 1500 Tankers (authorized 42 crew, 17 USN Armed Guards, similar armament to the Liberty Ship)

If USMC purchased Victory Models to issue to the civilian crew of their 6000+ ships, they would have been spread pretty thin. I suspect perhaps only the Captain (which we know were armed from records) and maybe the 4 other ships officers on each ship may have had access to firearms. Or, the other option is that besides the USMC's own Agent / Inspectors they had to outfit Ship Yard Guards to guard their yards and other facilities... they had over 640,000 employees to watch over. My bet is this is where the vast majority of USMC Victories may have went.