Victory data base

It is a pre-Victory in .38 Special which likely shipped around June 1942. It could be a DSC or Maritime Commission revolver, but without a factory letter, it is difficult to say. I do show some Maritime Commission revolvers with nearby SNs on my list.
 
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There is pre Victory for sale on the forum. SN 998718. What can anyone tell me about this one?
Dave
SWCW #2778

Nice looking Victory, the finish is much lighter than I would expect but it does not look refinished at all. I'm of the opinion that during this time frame S&W finishes were evolving from blue through brushed blue, and midnight black, before finally ending up with a Parkerized finished. The gray looking finish may be a result of that evolution or a quirk of the photo lighting.

Perhaps one of the resident experts will comment...
 
........ I'm of the opinion that during this time frame S&W finishes were evolving from blue through brushed blue, and midnight black, before finally ending up with a Parkerized finished......

Perhaps one of the resident experts will comment...

The evolution of the finish is quite well documented. And the finish with which the bulk of Victory models ended up, which at least based on my collection of letter copies alternately is labeled "military black magic" or "military midnight black" (I've got a V 491xxx with magic and a V 495xxx with midnight, shipped within 5 days of each other, and I doubt it changed right in-between), was not parkerizing, but a different phosphating process. The details and what little is known have been discussed elsewhere in the forum before, but it can appear distinctly different from regular parkerizing in photos, especially when aged and depending on lighting. It looks different to me when compared "in person" to a standard parkerized gun.

Beyond that general comment, I'll refrain from supporting or critiquing an ongoing sale on the forum in any way.
 
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The finish chronology given in the Carl Hellstrom factory notes seems to be:

Carbonia Blue - the normal S&W finish used until about late 1941.

Brush Blue (Black Magic Blue). A hot dip oxide blue with a wire brush metal surface preparation prior to bluing, starting in late 1941 at around SN 860000 (ca. 10/41). Black Magic is a proprietary metal finishing process sold by the Hubbard-Hall Company, very similar to the hot bluing process used today by most gun manufacturers and gunsmiths. Hubbard-Hall still sells Black Magic today. There is mention made that Black Magic may have been used to a limited extent by S&W as early as August 1940, probably on a test and evaluation basis.

Surface preparation was changed to sand (ceramic bead?) blasting in 3/42, continuing with the use of Black Magic oxide blue.

Parkerizing was used only during the period 5/4/42-5/9/42 (close to the beginning of the V- series on 4/24/42). There was apparently a dispute over royalty payments to the Parker Rustproofing Company, and the finish was quickly changed to some similar generic phosphating process that did not require royalty payments, and was continued for the rest of the war. This phosphate finish was called "Military Midnight Black," and it is unclear as to whether it was developed by S&W, or purchased from another outside source, and exactly what it was.

Factory letters frequently confuse "Black Magic" oxide bluing with "Military Midnight Black" phosphate finish probably because some factory records are incorrect in their use of finish terminology. They are not the same. Substantially all Victory (V-series) revolvers (except for some very early ones) will have the "Military Midnight Black" phosphate finish, not "Black Magic."

There are numerous variations of the phosphating process using different chemicals which result in different finish colorations. Whether S&W used exactly the same phosphate chemical composition or varied it throughout the war is unknown.
 
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Most people tend to use "parkerizing" as a generic term for any kind of dullish utility finish the way we use kleenex for any disposable nosewipe regardless of the actual manufacturer. As DWalt's summary makes clear, in this case that is not precise enough and can lead to confusion and/or misidentification of an original or re-finish.

For illustrative purposes, and since I just had them out of the safe, I've attached a couple of photos for comparison. Comparing Victory finishes with Colt's equivalent, the Commando, a utility version of the Colt Official Police, is instructive; on the Colt contract, the Army actually specified the finish as Parco-Lubrite, the trade name registered in 1940 by the Parker Rust Proof Company. So Commandos are actually parkerized in the real sense of the word.

The two guns pictured are in about the same state of preservation, good original finish with only moderate holster wear at the muzzle and frontal edges. The Commando is from late 1943, the Victory from mid-1944.

While the lighting isn't perfect, it's the contrast that's the point here. Compare the standard dull black of the parkerizing to the lighter, more greyish and sometimes even greenish sheen of the Victory. This occasionally leads less knowledgable people to mistake a Victory's finish for patina. Conversely, if you see a flat black-grey parkerized Victory in excellent condition, it could very well be a re-finish. So look closely. Especially a lot of Australian and NZ ex-BSR's have come back to this country re-parkerized.

If you're observant, you'll notice that the hammer on the Commando is also parkerized. That's original; in contrast to S&W, which left hammer and trigger case-hardened, Colt finished both like the rest of the gun.
 

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Greetings members. I'd like confirmation that these two Victory models in my collection are both from 1943. Feel free to add them to the database.

1: SN V400183, 38 S&W CTG, marked “U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D.” on the top strap.

2: SN V219289, 38 S&W Special CTG, marked "U.S. Navy" on the top strap. No other significant markings.
 
I purchased my first victory today all serial numbers match. I purchased 6 firearms from this gentleman they were his fathers three were S&W they were in his safe for the last 40yrs most I tracked down This one I am having issues no US head marking no other markings other than 38 S&W Ctg right side of barrel an v166736. If anyone could help that would be great.
 
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I purchased my first victory today all serial numbers match...... This one I am having issues no US head marking no other markings other than 38 S&W Ctg right side of barrel an v166736. If anyone could help that would be great.

A Victory in .38 S&W with that serial number and no other markings is a puzzle, unless it has been extensively refinished and the markings buffed off. It should be a regular British Service Model for Lend-lease with the US PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap. How about the type of finish, barrel length and type of stocks? Some pictures would be very helpful.
 
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It is a 4" barrel. Brought it by a friend he showed me a flying bomb on the butt opposite side of the SN. I was looking at the top strap where the polishing would have removed us navy or anything. The vertical grain of the metal are still their and crisp not worn down or smooth. I also checked the cylinder it is chambered in 38 special. In checking that I saw the serial number a chamber away V the opposite way l found a S. As far as the finish it's parkerized, stock as you can see is smooth species walnut I would say serial number inside matched the firearm.

I am having issues putting more than one pic I'm new to the forum first time posting. Thanks again for the input
 

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Here is a better pic. I am lost as to the history of this gun. I hope to figure out this pic situation so I can send more.
 

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And you are positive the barrel says 38 S&W CTG and not 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG? I'm unable to read the right side of the barrel due to image resolution. But this gun looks in every aspect like a regular old 4" barreled US Victory model with original phosphate finish, in which case it wouldn't have to have the topstrap stamping and just the flaming bomb would fit; but it can't have a 4" .38 S&W barrel and be original at that serial number.
 
I was wrong I went and looked it does have 38 S&W special ctg. what year is it from? Why does it have a S on the cylinder? Also why doesn't have any other markings? Is it civilian, military, I have a lot military rifles from this time period I know the value on those I have never owned a hand gun what price range are they in?
 
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I was wrong I went and looked it does have 38 S&W special ctg. what year is it from? Why does it have a S on the cylinder? Also why doesn't have any other markings? Is it civilian, military, I have a lot military rifles from this time period I know the value on those I have never owned a hand gun what price range are they in?

Okay, that clears up the mystery.

You have a US version Victory model from late 1942. Since it has no markings, it shipped on a non-military contract of either the US Maritime Commission (for arming Liberty ships, guarding port facilities etc.) or more likely the Defense Supply Corporation, which channeled restricted goods to customers who qualified. For handguns, those were police departments, defense contractors, sabotage-threatened utilities and such. These guns were actually sold to the recipient and therefore not stamped US PROPERTY. If you can afford to spend $50 to satisfy your curiosity and order a factory letter from S&W, it will tell you where your gun went.

As for value, condition is a big factor. All matching serial numbers help also. Anything from $300 for a shooter with lots of use wear to about $600 for a very nice unissued one is realistic, although you'll see lots of fantasy prices above that not going anywhere on Gunbroker.

PS: A little searching produced the thread below. Post #4, by a very knowledgeable forum member, contains an explanation for the S stamp. This was new to me, too.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/383368-s-stamp-victory-cylinder.html
 
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Thank you for information I will spend the $ 50 since this a very interesting gun to me.

Thanks again
 
Database adddtion

I'd like to add my serial number V129933 Victory Model in 38 Special with US Navy stamp to the database. All matching except for grip panel (anybody need panel #394066 ?).

Please let me know the date of manufacture.


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I'd like to add my serial number V129933 Victory Model in 38 Special......

Please let me know the date of manufacture.

It doesn't quite work that way. The keepers of the database, as well as others like DWalt who keep track of shipping dates (there are no records of manufacturing dates available), will be able to provide an educated guess on a shipping timeframe based on other guns in their files. That date will likely fall in about October 1942 or so. But there were irregular patterns. I had V 121432, not far from yours, which was also predicted to have shipped around then, but then lettered as having shipped only in April 1943, half a year later. So for an accurate shipping date, you'll have to pony up the $50 and order a history letter.
 
Hope this helps with the database. Just picked up a U.S. Navy marked Victory sn: 166938. Roy says it shipped in Dec. 1942.
 

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