Victory Model "Red Navy" closed auction

[murphydog]

It looks to be a legitimate and nice example. And look at the winning bid!

Just a moment...

 

[Goony]

Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.

 

[Slufstuff]

Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.

I was watching this auction and noticed the poor fit also. It is a bit off putting IMO. I was frankly surprised the auction even drew a $2500 starting bid, much less ended over $3k.

 

[blockislander]

I have one that I’ll happily sell for that!

 

[Valmet]

Unfamiliar with the “Red Letter” Navy Victory Models? You learn something new everyday I suppose.

 

[gunbarrel]

That is ridiculous.

 

[murphydog]

Unfamiliar with the “Red Letter” Navy Victory Models? You learn something new everyday I suppose.

A relatively small number of late prewar .38 M & Ps and early VMs had the extra markings applied, probably at the military arsenal or base level, and red paint applied. No known estimated numbers and the Navy obviously didn’t document them, they were busy with other stuff.

 

[DWalt]

There has always been some mystery about these Red (and sometimes White) Letter revolvers. The presumption is that they were not engraved at the factory, but rather at some unknown Navy facility or facilities where they were sent. And that is about all. There is no hard evidence of anything regarding their actual origin(s) and how many exist, at least nothing I have ever seen. And it is certainly possible that at least some could have been spuriously engraved. Anyone with an engraving machine and some paint could easily add the exact same legend to an early revolver. And there is no way to detect that. You need an abundance of faith to pay that price for a Red Letter revolver. I do not have that much faith.

 

[handejector]

Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.

That number was faked.
The numbers are too large and they are the wrong font.
There are a gazillion UN-numbered Victory grips around that were made as spare parts.

 

[jpage]

So, if the numbered stocks are fake, then perhaps the "Red Navy" engraving is as well ? Are Red Navys US Property GHD stamped ?

 

[murphydog]

It would take an in-person look to tell a legitimate vs. fake mark. They use(d) different techniques but I will not make it easy for the fakers by describing the fakery.

I have not seen a later (G.H.D.) stamped gun with red markings but never say never.

 

[Valmet]

So, if the numbered stocks are fake, then perhaps the "Red Navy" engraving is as well ? Are Red Navys US Property GHD stamped ?

When I Google it a handful of the pics come from Pre98.com as a source. They’re pretty well known shysters. Unsure about the one linked in the OP

 

[2152hq]

Is the OP revolver a good example of the 'Military Black Magic Finish' that the factory letter mentions.

Looks more of a Phosphate gray to me, but in reading about the different finishes on these, I just get more confused.

Should the ser# on the grip panel have been stamped at the same time and with the same stamps in hand as the rest of the ser#'s on the metal parts?
In other words, what was the procedure in the Factory. Were the grips done later? I agree it looks like a different stamp set/font.

The way oversize grip panels alone would have me standing back. It's difficult to rationalize that glaring fault away.
But then again I'm not in the market for $3K Victorys.

 

[DWalt]

Early WWII M&P Military revolvers had the standard S&W polished bright blue finish. That transitioned to a wire brush prep followed by S&W's standard bluing. Then to a sand/bead blast metal prep, and blued by a different hot dip oxide process called Black Magic, also referred to as "Midnight Black." That could be done far more quickly than using the standard peacetime S&W bluing. Wartime revolvers from 1942 onward received the Black Magic finish. A very small number of early revolvers were given a Parkerized phosphate finish.

I don't know the situation on the grips, but they should have been finished flush with the grip frame then serial numbered with the rest of the gun.

 

[JSR III]

Should the ser# on the grip panel have been stamped at the same time and with the same stamps in hand as the rest of the ser#'s on the metal parts?

I would think not. The gun assemblers and the stocking department were two different areas of the factory so I would think that it could be possible that a different set of stamps was used. Fonts should be from the same era however. Something that maybe Dr. Jinks could elaborate on.

These were used by the military and many went through a service armorer where reinstalling the correct stock panels may not have been of huge concern. Very possibly, if not faked, the numbered stock found its way back because it was numbered however a left panel without a number could have merely been picked from a pile.

A lot of fakery has gone on over the years and I recall that there was one dealer on the west coast that was famous for things like this.

Once a gun leaves the factory, all manor of things can be done. It's a real shame because it takes away some of the credibility of a real one.