Wad Cutters for Defence

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What kind of velocity is required to make a 38 special wad cutter a viable defence load?

I've chronographed a few different 38 special wad cutter loads and they are obviously pretty slow when compared to standard and +p but they do have the advantage of helping to keep the gun on target and are cheaper to practice with.

I'd appreciate your thoughts...


Regards, Racingsnake
 
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All of the factory wadcutter loads will penetrate 16-19" in 10% calibrated ordnance gelatin, and are a good choice for snubs where a standard pressure low recoil cartridge is desired. I prefer the wadcutter load from Black Hills Ammo. High velocity is not needed with these loads.

Regards,

Clay
 
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RacingSnake, Jim Cirillo, the VERY BEST of the ACTUAL modern day gunfighters, did a great deal of experimentation with ammo in developing weapons and loads to be used during his stint with the elite NYPD Stake Out Squad. He did much work with wadcutters, and developed some VERY effective loads. It would behoove you to read his book.......Jim Cirillo Book – Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights :: Blue Sheepdog
 
i used to load hollow base wadcutters with the hollow base up, makes a wicked hollow point, they will open up nice at moderate speeds.

Back "In The Day" this was a awesome defense round at close range. I never got any accurracy from this load at beyond 21 feet.
At close range the bullet expanded to a lead donut when tested.
 
proficiency with shot placement, a S&W snub nose and DEWC, (mine are @ 825fps) make a good defensive combination. Its what I use for practice and ccw (as soon as illinois joins the rest of the group and no longer sits in the dunce's corner)
 
I once saw a guy who had been shot with a "reverse" wadcutter. He pulled a .22 and fired one bad shot at an investigator who returned fire with a S&W model 38 loaded with them. The guy was hit from about 30" and the round went through his heart. The perp never got off another shot nor did the investigator need another shot. That old mod 38 became mine several years later and is in need of a serious reblue as I've carried it off and on for over 40 years and a lot of the finish is worn off of it. My friend Leland loaded me several of the backward wadcutters and I have several house guns loaded with them.
 
Until "magnumitis" set in during the last half of the 20th century, 148gr of soft lead at 700fps was considered more than adequate for close range defense, for shooters who could hit their target.

Not too shabby in a 3" model 60 for knocking off small game either.
 
All of the factory wadcutter loads will penetrate 16-19" in 10% calibrated ordnance gelatin, and are a good choice for snubs where a standard pressure low recoil cartridge is desired. I prefer the wadcutter load from Black Hills Ammo. High velocity is not needed with these loads.

Regards,

Clay

Exactly.

I'm planning on shooting this through some barriers into gel. Should be interesting.

BBWC.jpg
 
Until "magnumitis" set in during the last half of the 20th century, 148gr of soft lead at 700fps was considered more than adequate for close range defense, for shooters who could hit their target.

Not too shabby in a 3" model 60 for knocking off small game either.

Most factory wadcutters really aren't that soft. That, combined with their sharp shoulder, allows them to penetrate deeply, and crush and cut tissue while they're doing it. Most of the old IWBA guys I run into are still carrying 148 wadcutters in their 2" lightweight guns.
 
A standard velocity wadcutter load is one of the better .38 Special loads to carry in a 2" revolver. I've known of one-shot stops and several homicides using this load.

Please be advised that the American Rifleman technical advisor no longer recommends hot loading backwards .38 wadcutter bullets. Seems the think hollowbase tends to blow off or otherwise gets stuck in the forcing cone all to often.
 
While wad cutters were a reasonable choice "back in the day", there has been so much bullet development since then....that I think one can readily find better alternatives! Why go back to the stone age???
 
Racingsnake here is my perfered carry load "Jim Cirillo's Safe Stop"
 

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While wad cutters were a reasonable choice "back in the day", there has been so much bullet development since then....that I think one can readily find better alternatives! Why go back to the stone age???
Fair question. I recommend Gold Dots for students to carry for defense, but several physically impaired (arthritis, etc) people have been persuaded to carry .38 WC instead of going all the way down to a .22, or just forgetting the whole idea of having a gun.

Not here, but I have heard some people rant that anything less than .38 +P+ HP was "no better than a sharp stick," which is demonstrably NOT true.
We sometimes forget that the majority of the population is not composed of healthy young males.
 
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There effective for sure when loaded in reverse. What comes to mind is the "caution or warnings" I have herd from the L.E. community and the dreaded Lawyers on this very subject. It seems such" modified" self defense ammunition or "home brew" for self defense brings with it a firestorm of additional scrutiny... Yes, better to be judged by a group of piers then carried out unable to defend your self any further. Any one have any information on additional harassment about this issue? Obviously things are bad if and when you have to shoot some dirt bag.. Kyle
 
While wad cutters were a reasonable choice "back in the day", there has been so much bullet development since then....that I think one can readily find better alternatives! Why go back to the stone age???

Because many of the readily available and touted alternatives, will perform worse than the WC. Many of the "high performance" .38 special loads suffer from lack of penetration. A projectile that expands and makes a "big hole", but doesn't go deep enough to damage something important, isn't a good choice, no matter how new it is.
 
There effective for sure when loaded in reverse. What comes to mind is the "caution or warnings" I have herd from the L.E. community and the dreaded Lawyers on this very subject. It seems such" modified" self defense ammunition or "home brew" for self defense brings with it a firestorm of additional scrutiny... Yes, better to be judged by a group of piers then carried out unable to defend your self any further. Any one have any information on additional harassment about this issue? Obviously things are bad if and when you have to shoot some dirt bag.. Kyle

Though often brought up by dramatic gun writers, your choice of ammunition in an otherwise justified use of deadly force will have little bearing.
 
Very high velocities aren't needed with wadcutters. The most common reason to worry about lack of velocity is lack of expansion. A wadcutter is already at full caliber width so expansion isn't necessary. Add that to the lower recoil and accuracy of most wadcutters you have a winner there.
 
I practice alot with my 158 grain load - about 500 rounds a month and I shoot occassionaly with +p 158 gr LSWCHP's - sure I can keep all five shots in the vital zone at 7 and 10 yards but follow-up are slower and less pin-point than wad cutters.

There may be 'better' choices these days but I think the wad cutters low recoil and inherant accuracy support the need for good shot placement under stress - especially with the light weight snubs these days.
 
Racingsnake here is my perfered carry load "Jim Cirillo's Safe Stop"

WOW Pete ! ! i didn't think Jim ever got this ammo into production. Is it available for sale currently ? If so, could you post a link, please ?
 
Racingsnake here is my perfered carry load "Jim Cirillo's Safe Stop"

I see you're the manufacturer. A plated wadcutter is certainly a good idea, but I'm curious about the slot and it's effect on penetration. I'd be interested in what kind of test data you have. Is there anything you can link to or post?

Thanks.
 
We were loading them back in the 1970s as curiosities. Back then we were in production mode, as much as you can be with an old single stage press. For a while my favorite shooting gun was a M52 and that's the only round you can shoot other than forward loaded wadcutters. I've still got 2 boxes of 60 of them (thats how many fit the old Speer yellow plastic boxes.)

Just for fun we did a bunch of testing for accuracy. It should come as no surprise the M52 was dead accurate at 25 yards with its normal wadcutters. But with the reverse ones, it would open the groups up to about 6" or sometimes even more. And worse, the holes weren't always round at that distance. Some were more like smears. Recovered slugs were easy to distinguish between. The normal ones sometimes had some deformation where they went through a board. The backward ones were really a mess. Some clearly lost the skirt portion, but others were about an inch in diameter, like a heavy washer.

But then we took our little accuracy testing to another level. We started shooting them at 7 and 10 yards. At that range, the reverse ones were almost as good as normal. The 7 yard targets it wasn't unusual for all 5 shots to cut the same hole.

From my sordid youth, I discovered some other things. We had a family pellet gun. It was a Benjamin. And you could reverse the pellet when you chambered it. They delivered lousy accuracy. But something else I learned back then was how wadcutters worked. My backstop was a foam couch cushion. Well, really about a half dozen of them. Because something else I learned was you could recover them for a second life. Pellets were expensive and money scarce.

What we learned was the pellets would cut long worms out of the foam. Sometimes the forward facing ones would do that, too. But the open base would do it almost always. I remember my dad commenting on all the foam worms lying around our bullet trap. Full diameter, the length of the 6" cushions. Kind of core drillings.

I can just imagine a bad guy getting shot with a reverse wadcutter and someone finding a .357 diameter worm 10" long, with parts of the guys vitals cleanly cut from his insides.

One of the problems with bullets not expanding or being FMJ is the hole can maybe close and at least limit the bleeding. Can't do that with a big chunk missing. It provides a channel for the blood to exit. If nothing else, it will leave a good blood trail whereever he goes until he stops bleeding. That would be when he runs out of blood.
 
There effective for sure when loaded in reverse. What comes to mind is the "caution or warnings" I have herd from the L.E. community and the dreaded Lawyers on this very subject. It seems such" modified" self defense ammunition or "home brew" for self defense brings with it a firestorm of additional scrutiny... Yes, better to be judged by a group of piers then carried out unable to defend your self any further. Any one have any information on additional harassment about this issue? Obviously things are bad if and when you have to shoot some dirt bag.. Kyle

When one opts to use a firearm (deadly force), it's the use of the weapon, not the ammo to which the statutes refers.
 
The older stock 148 grain wadcutters back in the late seventies would kill a wild boar of 125 pounds with a side body shot from 100 feet or less, with less than a 30 yard run after shot fired. After seeing that, I never carried anything but that in my trusty .38. Everyone knows the importance of shot placement, but with all the body armor being used nowadays I carry much more punch. Follow up shots can be very important on a single target, but the first shot counts more than the next few to me.

I would not hesitate depending on that old load to protect myself with if I had to. I figure if I can get one shot off I will most likely survive to talk about it later. Hope I never have to, though. Just talking about it is fine enough for me.
 
I think the plain old factory wadcutter is effective as is, without reversing it or loading it to higher velocities.

I've only investigated one shooting with it - a woman popped a large man from the side at about armpit level. It careened through all of his good stuff and wound up in his pelvis. He said "oof" and fell over dead.

They are a pain to reload from a speedloader - I think I'd have something with a pointier nose for that.
 
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