Not true at all. It happens. If it happened once, it can happen again.
The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!
Wad Cutters for Defence
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Not true at all. It happens. If it happened once, it can happen again.
The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!
Another wrong statement. Read the following. It does happen.
The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!
nframes4me
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I've tested reversed hollowbased wadcutters in water and wet and dry phone books. Phone books are very good for testing penetration because you stack two or three books on top of eachother and then see how many pages the different projectiles penetrate on the book on the bottom.
This gives you a very precise comparative measurement of depth of penetratiion because each page is only eight hundredths of a millimeter thick.
What I discovered after firing a hundred rounds of reversed HBWC's at different velocities into these three differrent test mediums is that the results are counter-intuitive or in other words they don't work the same in real life as most people imagine that they should and they don't deform into the perfectly symetrical mushroom shape.
and the reason they don't is because the cavity is so big that the sections on the sides called the "skirt" of the base which is made thin so that it will expand outward and seal the bore, but when it's reversed it either peels outward and folds back over itself, or folds inward and plugs the cavity or does a little of both with peices of the thin "skirt" tearing off in additon to folding up.
This thin outer section of the hollowbase will also tear off even when seated with the hollowbase to the rear once velocities exceed about 850-900 FPS, causing the projectile to be imbalanced and shed weight, both of which limit penetration.
The only way you can drive wadcutters faster than standard target ammo is to use solid double end wadcutters and not hollow-base.
Buffalo bore makes a plus +p full wadcutter load and so does Bitterroot valley which is sold by Cheaper than dirt. I have tried the BV valley loads and like them, but I've not tried the Buffalo bore yet.
The reason that wadcutter ammo is still a viable alternative for self defense is because of the laws of physics. In a j-frame airwieght or even lighter snubbies such as ones with the titanium cylinders and scandium frames, any bullet 125 grains or heavier loaded to plus p velocity is going to be painful to fire and more difficult control. The copper jacket is a wondrful device for controlling expansion but it develops more friction than lead and therefore lead bullets can be driven to higher velocities at lower pressures.
I love my model 38 blued steel and aluminum snubby with it's shrouded hammer and the thin wooden j-frame grips which I can easilly carry in the top pocket of a sportcoat or a jacket pocket. But I don't like shooting it with anything but wadcutters and I'm not particularly recoil shy and enjoy shooting magnums.
another load that might be good for these lightwight guns is the federal nyclad 125 gr HP which is not plus P, but while this ammo is technically still in production federal hasn't shipped any for a while becaue they're backordered on a lot of their ammo.
This gives you a very precise comparative measurement of depth of penetratiion because each page is only eight hundredths of a millimeter thick.
What I discovered after firing a hundred rounds of reversed HBWC's at different velocities into these three differrent test mediums is that the results are counter-intuitive or in other words they don't work the same in real life as most people imagine that they should and they don't deform into the perfectly symetrical mushroom shape.
and the reason they don't is because the cavity is so big that the sections on the sides called the "skirt" of the base which is made thin so that it will expand outward and seal the bore, but when it's reversed it either peels outward and folds back over itself, or folds inward and plugs the cavity or does a little of both with peices of the thin "skirt" tearing off in additon to folding up.
This thin outer section of the hollowbase will also tear off even when seated with the hollowbase to the rear once velocities exceed about 850-900 FPS, causing the projectile to be imbalanced and shed weight, both of which limit penetration.
The only way you can drive wadcutters faster than standard target ammo is to use solid double end wadcutters and not hollow-base.
Buffalo bore makes a plus +p full wadcutter load and so does Bitterroot valley which is sold by Cheaper than dirt. I have tried the BV valley loads and like them, but I've not tried the Buffalo bore yet.
The reason that wadcutter ammo is still a viable alternative for self defense is because of the laws of physics. In a j-frame airwieght or even lighter snubbies such as ones with the titanium cylinders and scandium frames, any bullet 125 grains or heavier loaded to plus p velocity is going to be painful to fire and more difficult control. The copper jacket is a wondrful device for controlling expansion but it develops more friction than lead and therefore lead bullets can be driven to higher velocities at lower pressures.
I love my model 38 blued steel and aluminum snubby with it's shrouded hammer and the thin wooden j-frame grips which I can easilly carry in the top pocket of a sportcoat or a jacket pocket. But I don't like shooting it with anything but wadcutters and I'm not particularly recoil shy and enjoy shooting magnums.
another load that might be good for these lightwight guns is the federal nyclad 125 gr HP which is not plus P, but while this ammo is technically still in production federal hasn't shipped any for a while becaue they're backordered on a lot of their ammo.
Zappa
Member
This ^
Wadcutter holes don't close up, if you get hit with one, you better stick your pinky in the hole to stop the bleeding fast.
riverrat38
US Veteran
"Buffalo bore makes a plus +p full wadcutter load and so does Bitterroot valley which is sold by Cheaper than dirt. I have tried the BV valley loads and like them, but I've not tried the Buffalo bore yet."
I have used the BB 150 gr hard cast full wadcutters and they group well. They give about 850 FPS out of a 2 inch barrel. They are not plus p, just standard pressure, but because of the higher velocity, they kick like a plus P. About the same as the Speer plus P 135 gr SB that I now use. The reason that I switched is that the BB, and all other WC's that I have tried, shoot quite high in my M60 no dash and M442. The Speer SB shoot quite close to point of aim, so that is what I use.
Best,
Rick
I have used the BB 150 gr hard cast full wadcutters and they group well. They give about 850 FPS out of a 2 inch barrel. They are not plus p, just standard pressure, but because of the higher velocity, they kick like a plus P. About the same as the Speer plus P 135 gr SB that I now use. The reason that I switched is that the BB, and all other WC's that I have tried, shoot quite high in my M60 no dash and M442. The Speer SB shoot quite close to point of aim, so that is what I use.
Best,
Rick
Doug M.
Member
*
Right answer. I like these too, and for the reload, would like a nice SCW at a decent velocity (900+ fps) that does not cost a month's pay. I wish the folks at BH would load it; they are for my money the cream of the niche loaders along with Stan Chen (ASYM).
riverrat38
US Veteran
Double Tapp makes a hard cast WC that is about midway between a target WC and the BB version. 750 FPS out of a 2 inch tube. They have a nice square edge at the nose. This was the load I used in my M442, when it was my carry gun. The BB's were quite harsh in the alloy gun. I have since changed to my new M60 for EDC, with the Speer SB's.
Best,
Rick
Best,
Rick
I like 5.1 grains of Unique behind a 148 grain hardcast bevelbase wadcutter for .38 Special SD load. I have no use for the HBWC; I'm not interested in expansion. I'm interested in penetration. The sharp shouldered wadcutter is an excellent shape for creating a permanent wound channel.
It's all about the meplat.
It's all about the meplat.
Wow, zombie thread. 
But I digress...
For those who choose wadcutters for their recoil characteristics, I don't fault those individuals in the slightest; I recall when the IWBA touted the full wadcutter as being the "best to be had" in a .38 snub. However, while it's true that a hollowpoint may expand but a wadcutter never shrinks, they don't create substantially larger permanent wound cavities than unexpanded JHP or FMJ bullets with rounded ogives despite the former's design being arguably more efficient at crushing soft tissue (the frontal area of a FMJ is ~.101 versus ~.119 for a wadcutter). I'm also curious as to why the IWBA was so enamored with this load yet, to the best of my knowledge, had never tested its performance through intermediate barriers like automotive steel or laminated windshields.
I'm not trying to disparage the wadcutter, and I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with one, but it is not a "magic bullet" by any stretch of the imagination even in more exotic non-factory loadings.
To each his own but make mine the Remington LHP +P. Like the late Stephen A. Camp, I opine that even if it doesn't expand it's still a Keith-style semi wadcutter moving at a much greater velocity than a factory loaded wadcutter.
But I digress...For those who choose wadcutters for their recoil characteristics, I don't fault those individuals in the slightest; I recall when the IWBA touted the full wadcutter as being the "best to be had" in a .38 snub. However, while it's true that a hollowpoint may expand but a wadcutter never shrinks, they don't create substantially larger permanent wound cavities than unexpanded JHP or FMJ bullets with rounded ogives despite the former's design being arguably more efficient at crushing soft tissue (the frontal area of a FMJ is ~.101 versus ~.119 for a wadcutter). I'm also curious as to why the IWBA was so enamored with this load yet, to the best of my knowledge, had never tested its performance through intermediate barriers like automotive steel or laminated windshields.
I'm not trying to disparage the wadcutter, and I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with one, but it is not a "magic bullet" by any stretch of the imagination even in more exotic non-factory loadings.
To each his own but make mine the Remington LHP +P. Like the late Stephen A. Camp, I opine that even if it doesn't expand it's still a Keith-style semi wadcutter moving at a much greater velocity than a factory loaded wadcutter.
Smith357
US Veteran
Secondary question, the primary question is can you hit with a .38 wadcutter. There is no magic bullet, it's about shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. If you shoot well with wadcutters then by all means use them with confidence. Any gun and ammo combination you shoot well is a viable defense tool.
keith44spl
Member
Now Boys, that is sur nuf ol school right thar!
But, knotchin' them bullet noses go way back, I recall ol men talking about doing that when I was a young'n....
I used to load them HBWC backwards for them snubs,
now I'm jest loading a sharp shoulder cast or swaged HPs......For just about everything now'n days.
Su Amigo,
Dave
Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.
David LaPell
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I have always thought the wadcutter had a place in personal defense. I really want a wadcutter mould and have someone hollowpoint the darn thing. Eventually I want to try some expansion tests on these old Hydrashok hollowpoints to see exactly what they can do before I carry them around in my 649.
hardcase60
Member
After having lurked on this thread I started researching what the current market had to offer in wad-cutter's. What I found was not pretty, In fact it was UGLY!!. Not only are there not many choices, the availability is dismal and the price is over the moon. The "out of stock" notices got to be really tiring. 
Haven't reloaded in decades but it might be time. Thanks to the OP for dusting off my cobwebs.
hardcase60
Haven't reloaded in decades but it might be time. Thanks to the OP for dusting off my cobwebs. hardcase60
The factory target wadcutters don't offer much performance out of a
J frame snubby barrel in my opinion so I load my own for carry in my
37. 4.0 grs Bullseye under a hard cast 148 gr bevel base wad cutter
crimped in the crimping groove runs 820 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel
of my lightweight 37-2 and is a standard pressure load according to
every reloading manual I have. A substantial improvement over
factory target wadcutters and at standard pressure.
J frame snubby barrel in my opinion so I load my own for carry in my
37. 4.0 grs Bullseye under a hard cast 148 gr bevel base wad cutter
crimped in the crimping groove runs 820 fps out of the 1 7/8" barrel
of my lightweight 37-2 and is a standard pressure load according to
every reloading manual I have. A substantial improvement over
factory target wadcutters and at standard pressure.
10-4. I use Pennbullets premium hardcast, and crimp in the first groove, giving me 1.245" COAL.
In my speedloader for my 642, I have Blazer brass 125 FMJ. Chosen for the round nose, to ease reloading. Reloading still takes me forever.
It is? Please elaborate. No disrespect meant, but I'm curious why attaining fairly solid COM hits in a civilian self-defense situation is a statistical impossibility.
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squidsix
Member
Nothing personal, but this is bunk.
Shot placement is everything. I "know a guy" who was in a defensive situation in Seattle a few years back, and ran his 4516 to slidelock on a bad guy at ~30 feet. The ME reported (a month later) that there were five unsurvivable hits, and that they only recovered five rounds in the guy. He believed that the last three went through the existing hole, based on some of the tearing in that area with no rounds accounting for it.
That guy carries a revolver now, and wadcutters suit him fine.
Not impossible. Just unlikely.
If you have to shoot someone, it is highly likely that you'll be within six feet of them. Hence you will not be able to extend your arms toward them, as that will create an opportunity for them to grab your gun. You will likely be holding your gun between waist and chest high when you fire. You will hence not be able to use the sights. Hence you will not be able to aim, at least not in a conventional manor. By the way, the perp will likely be moving, and you should be moving, too. Look at "shot placement" in that perspective.
Additionally, even at longer range, where sights could be used, target fixation frequently causes people to ignore the sights. It's hard to take your eyes off someone who is threatening your life.
The average shot fired in self defense MISSES THE ASSAILANT ENTIRELY. That's why I get so amused when the "over penetration" crowd comes out.
You mention COM hits, and that is good. Targeting COM is what you should expect to have to try. You will instinctively do that, anyway, as COM will be the largest target available during your extreme situation. SD shoot training should include some shots fired from waist high at short range, like 5 feet.
Also, do not shoot once, then pause to analyze the effect. Most handguns are poor stoppers; you should expect to continue firing until you get a positive reaction from the assailant, i.e., they collapse or run, so that they are no longer a threat to you. Your first shot is unlikely to stop the assailant, and you won't know whether it was because it didn't stop them, or your shot missed entirely.
The above is why I say "shot placement" in a self defense situation is a fantasy. You'll be damn lucky just to hit them!
Fire from a retention position when within spitting distance of an attacker... Shoot until the threat stops... Seems we have all the proper bases covered. Yet, I still don't see how Smith357 was emphasizing surgical shot placement within the context of a very close self-defense encounter.
Just my own personal viewpoint, but if I were within six feet of an attacker, especially a knife-wielder, the LAST thing I'd be doing is reaching for my sidearm... In fact, I'd probably be asking myself why my situational awareness (or lack thereof) hadn't prompted me to present it before they even got that close to me.
Anyhow, I don't wish to digress from the OP's topic. If you would like to discuss this further, I would be happy to but I also recommend that you start a new thread so we don't get dinged by the moderators.
Smith357
US Veteran
At this point why am I bothering to carry a firearm? If I opt to wallop him with a frying pan, can I aim for the head or would that be pointless too?
Florida J Frame
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That's your opinion. Can you defend it with fact that can be verified?
I have no stake in convincing you; we are all responsible for our own salvation.
Others may find this an interesting read:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
In the vast majority of cases, the simple appearance of a firearm stops confrontation. With no shots fired.
In most cases where shots are fired, the confrontation ends immediately. Not because the perp has been physically stopped, but because he doesn't like being shot at enough to stop what he is doing.
In the above two situations, a handgun is a very useful tool.
In the third case, where there is a determined attacker who is inclined to continue even if hit, a handgun is a sorry weapon.
If you have to shoot, you don't know which kind of attacker you are facing.
Frank V
Member
I still think the 158gr Remington lead SWCHP +P is one of the better defense loads in the .38 Special. ( Buffalo Bore makes two versions, one a +P & the other a std pressure. ) It will reach vitals & if it doesn't expand, you still have a heavy SWC cutting through everything in it's way.
Massad Ayoob makes reference to it in his Handgun Defense book.
Frank
Moonman
Member
158 Grain LSWCHP+P is the old F.B.I. Load.
DWalt
Member
That's sort of old news, but is the classic example of an incompetent defense attorney. The prosecutor latched onto the use of a .40 S&W as an example of wanton blood lust and murderous intent on the part of the defendant, and convinced the jury of it. His defense attorney did an extremely poor job of pointing out how common the .40 S&W was in police service, and that it was no more indicative of blood lust than any other caliber. I believe the AZ state law was later changed to prevent this sort of travesty of justice from happening to anyone else. Several years ago, this case was covered thoroughly on one of the network news shows like Dateline or 20/20. But I don't remember which show it was.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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One of the many reasons that Harold Fish was convicted by a jury of his peers was because the killing weapon was a 10MM caliber pistol loaded with hollow point ammunition. And when many of the jury members went on TV to talk about this case, the use of the "powerful" 10MM caliber with HP ammo is what stuck in their minds, which helped the prosecutor get his conviction.
Also, just because Fish's attorney didn't know how to defend the use of a 10MM caliber firearm using HP ammo for SD, that doesn't mean he had an incompetent legal counsel.
Moonman
Member
The Quickest way to jail sometimes is a Public Defender.
Oh, heck... I might as well break my own promise. When in Rome...
It's a very interesting read indeed, but I still see little correlation between civilian self-defense shootings and LE shootings. To the best of my knowledge, the former does not involve having to shoot barricaded perpetrators behind intermediate barriers, nor have I heard (to date) of any scenarios involving two or more armed civilians engaging a single attacker.
So you mean to say that the overwhelming statistical majority of "stops" in civilian SD scenarios are psychological rather than physiological in nature? Interesting... Could you cite any materials or studies to corroborate that? (To elaborate, I'm not talking about cases where the defender missed completely.)
It's a very interesting read indeed, but I still see little correlation between civilian self-defense shootings and LE shootings. To the best of my knowledge, the former does not involve having to shoot barricaded perpetrators behind intermediate barriers, nor have I heard (to date) of any scenarios involving two or more armed civilians engaging a single attacker.
So you mean to say that the overwhelming statistical majority of "stops" in civilian SD scenarios are psychological rather than physiological in nature? Interesting... Could you cite any materials or studies to corroborate that? (To elaborate, I'm not talking about cases where the defender missed completely.)
