Wadcutter accuracy

[Wgf]

I am reloading a 15-6. In the past I have not used a lot of full wadcutters. I am wondering if there are any general rules of thumb about the different types.
I am guessing full wadcutters are more accurate at short range?
At what range do semi wadcutters become more accurate?
What are button nose wadcutters for?
Hollow base wadcutters are more accurate at low velocity?
Double ended wadcutters are more convenient when loading cases?
In the past I have just used semi wadcutters at about 850 FPS as a general purpose load. I want to try to find a more accurate load At about that velocity for 25 yards and under. I concentrated on Production quality and now I am hoping that you guys who have concentrated More on quality accuracy Can help me out.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The advantages of full wadcutter loads are

1) 100% bullet bearing surface

2) deep seated bullets use less powder

3) since they are slower velocity, the bullets are usually softer and take the rifling very well!

4) Large quantities of ammo take less storage space.

Ivan

Softer regular bullets at target velocities can be super accurate too.

 

[white cloud]

I have been told the HBWC act sort of like a dart and the skirt expands to grip the rifling. A friend of mine (an excellent shot BTW) had a K-38 and access to a Ransom rest. The results at 50 yards with his Bullseye/HBWC loads were pretty amazing.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I don't know about full WCs being more accurate at short range. They were designed to cut full caliber holes in paper targets and the NRA bullseye matches and the police PPC matches which all used/use them through 50 yards on paper.

The HB WCs are extremely accurate, but in the slow S&W rifling, they will start to give slightly out of round holes on paper at 50 yards. The Colt's faster rifling twist has them fully stabilized at 50 yards. Either design will clean the course of fire at 50 yards if you hold your revolver well.
I load both HB and full WCs and to be honest, both are easy to load. I guess if you had an auto bullet feed on a Dillon press, you'd want the double ended WC.

The button nose WCs do nothing special for you.

2.7 to 3.0 grains of Bullseye is about as good as it gets with them, although Tightgroup is also a very good powder for their lower velocity and pressure.

If you're shooting at beyond 70 yards or so, I'd go with the SWCs at 850 fps v. the WCs at 700 to 750 fps.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

BTW, you'll want 650 fps +/- for true target ammo. If you are using a "hot" or magnum primer, it will add as much as 50 fps to your base velocity. My F-I-L won 2 national championships with 38 special using Alcan primers (made by Fiocchi) and backed the normal Bullseye load off by 2 tenths of a grain! And the same for 45 ACP (he went "Distinguished" in both!)

Ivan

 

[Drm50]

I shoot about 99% WCs in all my S&Ws. I am using button nose in 38 and 45 cal. I have DEWC and HBWC in 38. 45 I have DEWC too. In 44 I have DEWC and just got HBWC/ 4 cav. The button nose I like because you can cast it hard and run it fast as a SWC. You can also crimp it on grease grooves instead of flush. HBWC has been most accurate but until I got this 44 HBWC mold all mine were single cavity.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Most of us shoot a WC design, since it cuts a nice round hole in a paper target that is easy to see and score, if needed.

I also shoot a 158gr LRN bullet in my little J frame 2" snub nose loaded with Trail Boss powder that only does 570fps............
but from a rest, all the bullets will be touching one another at 15 yards !!

A JHP can give good accuracy, it just depends on the weapon and shooter.
Just load up what bullets you have and try out a few different loads to see what your weapon likes and have fun.

 

[pistolpete10]

RN .38 bullets don't cut pretty round holes in paper but they can be very accurate.

 

[pasound]

Loaded 148gr HBWC thirty+ years ago for my M10, 60, and a Rossi 357, with 231. Very accuratate in all. Now a lifetime later, a new 60, plus other J's, and a couple of Rugers, and Hornady 148gr HBWC's, with the same load of 231. All shoot to where I aim.

 

[Wgf]

A lot of good information, I have some cast 148g dewc and some Bullseye. I will pick a load out of Lymans and try them against the 158g swc I have been using. I shoot indoors at 15 and 25 yards. I have been loading the 200g 45s and 44s with 5.6 grains of Bullseye or 6.5 grains of Unique. I am using 3.4g Bulldeye with my 158g 38.

 

[6string]

There is a LOT involved in getting the most out of wadcutters.
They may or may not be the best choice for your revolver.
Very best results are usually obtained by casting your own if (and only if) you are willing to experiment with alloys, lubes, and sizing. The hollow base swaged commercial wadcutters are a better choice if you can't be bothered.
But, it's not all that uncommon to find that a RN or SWC will give you better results. Again, this will depend on the amount of work you're willing to do. Also, there is a certain amount of luck in getting a real "winner" of a mold (assuming we're talking cast bullets).
Al Miller wrote a series of articles for Handloader Magazine in the 70s that specifically addressed issues for assembling target grade 38 Special handloads. One was entitled "Wadcutters or?" That dispelled a lot of rumors.

Recently, I posted an entry concerned with accuracy in the M52. As this is a "wadcutter only" pistol, the accompanying data in the attachment might be of interest. See post #7:

So, What's Up With Clark's Replacement Barrel for the Model 52-2?

Look carefully at the test results. Out of a Ransom Rest and using four different M52s and three matched lots of match ammo, groups could still vary wildly. The same gun that shot a 1" group (10 shots @ 50 yds) also shot a 3" group....with the same ammo.
What does that say?
Does it have to do with the infamous wadcutter "keyhole"?
Was it just wind drift?

The lesson is, don't be premature about jumping to conclusions. Set your test standards high. Shoot 10 shot groups, or 20 shot groups. Shoot at 50 yds. 25 yds is a serious compromise, anything less is a waste of ammo (test purpose judgement only, no offense intended). If you don't have a Ransom Rest (i.e: shooting from sandbags or a rest) practice the technique involved. Be sure you can shoot a target 22 into 1"-1.5" at 50 yds using your rest before trusting your results with a centerfire revolver.

Oh yeah, Have Fun!

Jim

 

[lrrifleman]

A lot of good information, I have some cast 148g dewc and some Bullseye. I will pick a load out of Lymans and try them against the 158g swc I have been using. I shoot indoors at 15 and 25 yards. I have been loading the 158s with 5.6 grains of Bullseye or 6.5 grains of Unique.

Typically, the standard load for a 148gr wadcutter using Bullseye is 2.7-2.8gr. Your 158gr load using 5.6gr of Bullseye is "HOT"! My RCBS Cast Bullet Manual (No1) shows 4.0gr Bullseye as maximum and producing 902 fps out of a 6" Model 14. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (5th edition) shows a maximum of 3.8gr Bullseye for 860 fps (standard 38 Special), and 4.1gr for a +P load!

 

[Wgf]

“ shoot a 22lr into a 1.5” group @ 50 yards” ; I am in over my head! I liked the article. Those Bullseye guys are amazing. I will have fun making noise and nice round holes.

 

[6string]

“ shoot a 22lr into a 1.5” group @ 50 yards” ; I am in over my head! I liked the article. Those Bullseye guys are amazing. I will have fun making noise and nice round holes.

If nothing else, following good general reloading advice will give you pleasant shooting and affordable ammo!
Always room to grow and learn, while having fun!



Jim

 

[Engineer1911]

I shot 3 different loads out of a M586 with 8-3/8" barrel and a dot sight. Two loads were X-ring at 25 yards [25 yard bullseye center], 3rd load was 10 ring.

At 50 yards [50 yard bullseye center], two loads were 9 / 10 ring accuracy. The 3rd load had several hits outside the black, but it was the lightest load and was HBWC.

My suggestion would be to load 40 rounds each using 3 different powder weights, increasing the charge by 0.3 grain each time, for example 2.5, 2.8, 3.1 grains. Fire 20 rounds at 25 yards, fire 20 rounds at 50 yards to get a comparison at each yardage. I would suggest a quick cleaning of the revolver barrel after the 60 rounds at 25 yards -- a couple of strokes with a bore brush / solvent followed by 2 dry patches.

The faithful proclaim Bullseye powder. I have shot up 1# of Bullseye dirt, but used many pounds of Winchester 231, Accurate Arms #2, and Winchester 452 (obsolete about 1990). Ball powder meters very accurately.

 

[OKFC05]

A lot of good information, I have some cast 148g dewc and some Bullseye. I will pick a load out of Lymans and try them against the 158g swc I have been using. I shoot indoors at 15 and 25 yards. I have been loading the 158s with 5.6 grains of Bullseye or 6.5 grains of Unique.

Safety warning: Your loads are WAY TOO HOT for HBWC and could cause damage to the gun and injury to shooter BECAUSE the HBWC could blow apart, leaving the skirt in the barrel as an obstruction for the next shot.

The DEWC will stand up to heavier loads, but that misses the whole point of using WC for precise target shooting, which calls for fast powder and LIGHT LOADS.

Learning bullseye shooting with a .22 is lots cheaper, and gets you away from the idea that changing .38 loads is going to automatically make you shoot smaller groups. I have introduced many shooters to bullseye shooting, and usually the first thing everyone has to learn is trigger control, which benefits all shooting.

 

[gwpercle]

A wonderfully accurate wadcutter that few people are even aware of .

Lyman # 358432 - 160 gr. version ( a 148 gr. mould was also available)
Both of the Lyman moulds have been discontinued .

But ...NOE Moulds makes them , listed as : NOE 360 - 160 - WC - PB
This is the most accurate bullet I have ever tested in all my 38 Special revolvers . For testing I have a model 64 set up for Bullseye shooting , heavy match barrel and red dot sight ... This bullet wins every time.
And I grew up reading Elmer Keith so saying it shoots more accurately than the SWC design hurts my very soul.

I don't have photo posting ability at the moment , check out NOE site for design or possibly a kind member could post drawing or photo for old dude who's computer handicapped .
Thanks
Gary

 

[Wgf]

Safety warning: Your loads are WAY TOO HOT for HBWC and could cause damage to the gun and injury to shooter BECAUSE the HBWC could blow apart, leaving the skirt in the barrel as an obstruction for the next shot.

The DEWC will stand up to heavier loads, but that misses the whole point of using WC for precise target shooting, which calls for fast powder and LIGHT LOADS.

Learning bullseye shooting with a .22 is lots cheaper, and gets you away from the idea that changing .38 loads is going to automatically make you shoot smaller groups. I have introduced many shooters to bullseye shooting, and usually the first thing everyone has to learn is trigger control, which benefits all shooting.

I edited my post. I meant to compare my 38s with my other calibers. Thank you for catch my error.

 

[mikld]

Sorta on topic about wadcutters; I started reloading my 38 Specials with cast round nose bullets then discovered wadcutters. I did the hollow based wadcutters with 2.9 gr Bullseye for quite a while then went online looking at reloading forums (2005) and saw a bunch of "Self Defense and Home Defense" topics, and drifted away from accuracy shooting for a while, then bought a mold for DEWC. The DEWCs were as accurate in my guns as the HBWC and I cast and shot a lot, and then thought of a "house gun" load and came up with my load of 150 gr cast DEWC over a max load of W231 (not +P). Accurate out to 25 yds and I think the flat face will impart a lot of tissue damage when running just under 900 fps at across the room distances...

 

[4barrel]

A wonderfully accurate wadcutter that few people are even aware of .

Lyman # 358432 - 160 gr. version ( a 148 gr. mould was also available)
Both of the Lyman moulds have been discontinued .

But ...NOE Moulds makes them , listed as : NOE 360 - 160 - WC - PB
This is the most accurate bullet I have ever tested in all my 38 Special revolvers . For testing I have a model 64 set up for Bullseye shooting , heavy match barrel and red dot sight ... This bullet wins every time.
And I grew up reading Elmer Keith so saying it shoots more accurately than the SWC design hurts my very soul.

I don't have photo posting ability at the moment , check out NOE site for design or possibly a kind member could post drawing or photo for old dude who's computer handicapped .
Thanks
Gary

Just for you. You can turn it around with good results.