Wadcutters For Snubbies

[eb07]

What was the penetration of? Pine boards? Ballistic gel? A 400lb fat tub of lard who decides he wants your car/money/valuables?

Based on the mug shots I see, a large % of thugs aren't missing any meals. Throw a heavy winter coat into that mix & then color me skeptical.

My .o2

Well sir,



Jim Cirillo of the Stake Out Unit of the NYPD was a great believer in the full charge wadcutter as being more effective than anything else and they put a lot of armed criminals in the dirt. last I checked, NY was cold in the winter. I will take the man with real life experience over gel tests and internet speculations any day.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I was wondering when someone would bring up how wonderful the 148 gr. HBWC loaded backwards is.

Me too! A lot of Gun Writers have been writing about it for 60 years.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I think as we age we need to adjust especially for your EDC.

Use your favorite .38 Special load but eventually if it becomes hard to manage its time for a Match Wadcutter.

Of course some are better off with a .22 or a .32 revolver.

Just from when I was a cop a two inch is just a BUG. While some Detectives carried a snubnose a few preferred the four inch.

 

[sigp220.45]

Just from when I was a cop a two inch is just a BUG. While some Detectives carried a snubnose a few preferred the four inch.

And then there is this old school LA homicide dick.

 

[Warren Sear]

What was the penetration of? Pine boards? Ballistic gel? A 400lb fat tub of lard who decides he wants your car/money/valuables?

Based on the mug shots I see, a large % of thugs aren't missing any meals. Throw a heavy winter coat into that mix & then color me skeptical.

My .o2

A winter coat isn't going to stop any bullets. I wonder where this got started. I would be glad to see it go away.

Any pellet gun will sail straight through a winter parka.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Early seventies I did load HBWC upside down. So did a couple of other guys on our 200 man department. Strictly for BUG you understand. Anyway nobody was ever shot with this load that I know of. Probably would have been problematic as even nailpolish was frowned upon.

As for the winter coat I saw one guy shot in a driveby a good 100 feet away with a .25 ACP hit his very heavy wool coat and a vest. Heart shot. He was very dead. That same winter another guy gut shot with a .45 ACP hardball. It hurt but he lived to talk about it. You never know. Placement is king.

.

 

[Autonomous]

I was wondering when someone would bring up how wonderful the 148 gr. HBWC loaded backwards is.

All the times I see this load brought up I've never seen the reduction in case volume or increased COL discussed.
You think some guys are playing with higher pressures than they think?

 

[bobsguns]

No offense, but can't anyone read?

So I made the switch to Underwood 150gr wadcutter. 1000 fps out of a four inch barrel.

So which one of your two statements aren't correct then?

For the record, I read exceptionally well.

 

[bobsguns]

Be skeptical all you want.

Skepticism is what keeps a lot of folks alive.

But just throwing out something random as all get-out such as "penetration tests" without giving what KIND of tests they were justly deserves this:

 

[bobsguns]

The testing I've seen has been in both clear gel and ballistic gelatin. Wadcutters penetrated to within the 12"-18" depth spread the FBI says is necessary, including four-layer denim. That's the current accepted standard. If you want something more, it's available.

Thank you for the specifics.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Skepticism is what keeps a lot of folks alive.

But just throwing out something random as all get-out such as "penetration tests" without giving what KIND of tests they were justly deserves this:

I stated search parameters.

Don't blame others for your skepticism because you're either incapable or too lazy to do your own research.

Evidently you find it easier to give people a hard time.

 

[bobsguns]

I notice how the very limited display of revolvers only seem to attract the senior citizen type at the LGS. that's OK too.

You're attending the wrong gun shows, IMO.

Revolvers sell well in TN gun shows, based on my 30 years of working them.

 

[bobsguns]

Jim Cirillo of the Stake Out Unit of the NYPD was a great believer in the full charge wadcutter as being more effective than anything else and they put a lot of armed criminals in the dirt. last I checked, NY was cold in the winter. I will take the man with real life experience over gel tests and internet speculations any day.

Define "well charged", please.

That's like saying "I have a fast car/truck."

 

[bobsguns]

I think as we age we need to adjust especially for your EDC.

Use your favorite .38 Special load but eventually if it becomes hard to manage its time for a Match Wadcutter.

I would offer a counterpoint.

Rather than change my ammo, which I will know works well due to practice & testing on my own, I would instead change my gun.

Instead of an airweight J-frame, I would probably go to an all-steel J-frame. Perhaps even to a 3" K-frame? Actually, I HAVE done that these days. I rotate my carry among my S&W 19C, Colt King Cobra & Python. All .357mag loadings, all 3" barrels.

That all-steel build allows me to not worry about new ammo, point-of-impact changing, etc. There may be a time when I HAVE to shoot through a car windshield, a metal door of some sort or other hard barrier. A .357mag gives me that option, allowing me to decide if I have to take that shot or not. I don't believe a HBWC load is going to do that, certainly not a 850f/p/s loading.

A carry load-out is a very personal choice, I get that. What feels good for Billy-Bob may not feel right for Joe-Bob & so on & so forth. That's why there's a million different guns being made these days & probably more offerings in ammo. We all get to choose what we think works best. Well, except for those living in communist states.

My .o2

 

[bobsguns]

A winter coat isn't going to stop any bullets. I wonder where this got started. I would be glad to see it go away.

Any pellet gun will sail straight through a winter parka.

No one claims "it will stop a bullet." At least *I* don't claim that.

But there are several types of coats that will have some effect on bullet penetration, IMO. I wear a heavy leather jacket when I ride my motorcycle. I mean this thing is THICK & also has body panels in parts of it. I've also read of jackets having some amount of kevlar in them, I have no clue how much.

I also have some decent Carthartt jackets that I KNOW a pellet won't penetrate. So yes, I'll take that bet.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Define "well charged", please.

That's like saying "I have a fast car/truck."

The "full charge" wadcutter load is from way back in the day. It was basically a wadcutter loaded to the same pressure as standard .38 Special ammo, while the load we know today is a reduced "mid-range" version. I believe they ran ~750 fps from a 4" revolver.

 

[cleger]

Be skeptical all you want.

Like I said, do some research.

Have you researched your current self defense ammo?

Or did you take someone at their word?

Sort of. I'm convinced (having shot them) that Underwood .357 158 gr. JHPs through a 4" Smith are about as much as I can stand. I'm pretty sure they'll still be trucking along after passing though a windshield or car-door-window-sandwich. Must I buy a chronograph, or shoot up a derelict car?

There is no flavor of .38 through a ~2" barrel that is the equal of my wild-eyed urban-combat fantasy scenarios. The 2" .38 +p is more on the .380 side of things, so better to buy an '80s double-stack Beretta.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Another Wadcutter The Manstopper thread. And I'm all out of popcorn. :-(

 

[AJ]

No offense, but can't anyone read?

Two inch barrel. 850 fps.

Which MAY be a little on the high end.

You are asking a lot out of this crowd!

 

[gubber7181]

Im actually new to carrying a J frame, Just bought an older M38.
and you look at all the research and ballistics, yes wadcutters make perfect sense out of a snub nose. Now yes certain loads may give you 700-800FPS
but a majority of ammo brands out of a snubnose are giving 400-500fps.
Just research the ammo you want to buy. But also as probably mentioned
these pistols are made for up close, although I know some can reach some distance, In a carry situation I would not recommend it.

 

[BE Mike]

Years back a good friend of mine was with the local mid sized town PD. He was SWAT and firearms instructor among his other duty's.

We were shooting a PPC course at the club and his normal "space gun" had a problem. I and a couple others offered him our guns as we had already shot. He said thanks but no thanks.

He went and fired the course with his model 60. Made a believer of quite a few people. The course of fire was 60 rounds and out to 50 yards!

OBTW he also was for years a high ranked holder on the governors 20 shooting list and and shot registered matches as a high master!

Interesting, especially when one considers that the PPC course of fire requires multiples of 6 shots and your buddy was shooting a 5 shot revolver. That wouldn't win anything in any matches that I shot back in the day.

 

[BE Mike]

Well sir,



Jim Cirillo of the Stake Out Unit of the NYPD was a great believer in the full charge wadcutter as being more effective than anything else and they put a lot of armed criminals in the dirt. last I checked, NY was cold in the winter. I will take the man with real life experience over gel tests and internet speculations any day.

Many of the criminals were taken at close range with a 12 ga. slug to the head. I don't recall that the stakeout squad used reloads in their handguns for duty. Maybe you could enlighten me with a quote from one of his books.

 

[DHernandez]

The Underwood Xtreme Defender and Penetrator rounds seem to test very well out of shorter barrels and smaller calibers. Might be the best hybrid wadcutter/duty blend? I have them in my .32 Beretta, but I've never tried them in my larger guns.

 

[rockquarry]

Im actually new to carrying a J frame, Just bought an older M38.
and you look at all the research and ballistics, yes wadcutters make perfect sense out of a snub nose. Now yes certain loads may give you 700-800FPS
but a majority of ammo brands out of a snubnose are giving 400-500fps.
Just research the ammo you want to buy. But also as probably mentioned
these pistols are made for up close, although I know some can reach some distance, In a carry situation I would not recommend it.

What is included in the majority of ammo brands that provide velocities in the 400-500 fps range in snub nose revolvers?

As for "up close", snub nose guns work great, but they are capable of surprising accuracy even at 25 yards if you're a proficient handgunner. Most of us aren't.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

And then there is this old school LA homicide dick.

I still have my Cross Draw Holster for a S&W Model 15.

 

[BE Mike]

What is included in the majority of ammo brands that provide velocities in the 400-500 fps range in snub nose revolvers?

As for "up close", snub nose guns work great, but they are capable of surprising accuracy even at 25 yards if you're a proficient handgunner. Most of us aren't.

The drawbacks are the short sight radius, tiny sights and small grip. The latter can be overcome by replacing them, but the former 2 cannot. The gun itself is surprisingly accurate out to even greater distances than 25 yards.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The drawbacks are the short sight radius, tiny sights and small grip. The latter can be overcome by replacing them, but the former 2 cannot. The gun itself is surprisingly accurate out to even greater distances than 25 yards.

The drawbacks are only drawbacks if you're at the range and shooting for real accuracy. When the fecal matter hits the whirling blades you really need to know how to point shoot. Maybe that's just me.....YMMV

 

[rockquarry]

The drawbacks are only drawbacks if you're at the range and shooting for real accuracy. When the fecal matter hits the whirling blades you really need to know how to point shoot. Maybe that's just me.....YMMV

Few will practice with snub nose guns enough to become proficient with them. It's much easier for these folks to criticize the revolver instead.

 

[BE Mike]

The drawbacks are only drawbacks if you're at the range and shooting for real accuracy. When the fecal matter hits the whirling blades you really need to know how to point shoot. Maybe that's just me.....YMMV

I found that I needed to know how to use the sights and control the trigger. Point shooting is a good skill to have, as well. It seems like most handgun shooters, these days can't hit anything much beyond spitting range. Having said that, you may have much more experience than I in armed encounters.

 

[AJ]

It seems like most handgun shooters, these days can't hit anything much beyond spitting range.

I see that at the range all the time.