When squirrel hunting in Florida, I shot an armadillo with my .22 rifle. One shot and he dropped dead in his tracks. Cooked him up and ate him.
Wadcutters For Snubbies
- Thread starter Kanewpadle
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Well, nothing wrong with Providence and/or Luck working in someone's favor at one time or another.
People get shot and critically injured or killed by shots fired by people with few skills and no training, too. They usually aren't the intended targets, though.
Did any of you notice that two great SD bullets for SD, are not made any more?
The125 "Blue" Nyclad and the 130 HST,
both made by Federal.
I have factory ammo and one box of 130's from Midway on the shelf.
I prefer the heavier bullets, if possible.
6thtexas
Member
in one of his books Cirillo talked about effectiveness of different loads. he actually had a bad guy take a 12 ga. slug in the chest and still leave the building and go to the curb where he thought his ride would be. IIRC Cirillo said that after all the shootings they had the only thing he could absolutely guarantee to be an immediate stop was a .38 WC placed in the vicinity of the target's right eye.
I highly recommend Cirillo's books. He really had been there and done that as opposed to all the admen pushing new stuff and all the keyboard commandos.
I might add that Cirillo's WC loads were "full charge" loads that produced the same velocity as the 158 RN load. It is my understanding that ammunition companies loaded these for several large city PDs including New York. This load gave the same recoil as the RN carry loads but were easier to score on qualifications. This load can be replicated with a SOLID based WC and 3.5 grains of Bullseye (I wouldn't use over 3.2 grains with any HBWC available today). I use a Lyman 358495. Velocity will run about 800fps in a 4" and they average 749fps out of my Model 49. Penetration is more than adequate and as Elmer Keith would say the full caliber hole lets a lot of blood out and cold air in. I have shot several sheep and a steer for slaughter with this load and have a lot of confidence in it.
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Years ago my father worked with a guy who'd been shot in the chest with a 12 gauge slug. He lived through it. Obviously bullet placement means everything.
AJ
US Veteran
Have heard that before. I have always wondered at what range.
People who's goal is to improve, train. Practice is doing the same thing over and over again.
AJ
US Veteran
Guess we had it wrong in the Corps, as we trained a lot. Even the F.A.S.T Companies (F.A.S.T. = Fleet Antiterrorism Security Teams).
Guess some of the supposed professionals need more training as have seen shootings where the suspect was only hit a couple of times after being shot at, at close range.
There is always room for improvement.
Attachments
This is a really good general purpose 38 Special load that works especially well in .38 snubs. I get right at 800 fps in my Model 36 with the this load and it isn't especially uncomfortable to shoot. It does 847 fps in a 4" Model 15. Penetration is outstanding. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer at reasonable ranges. It's a little more than I like in my Model 342 titanium gun but it's fine in the slightly heavier airweights and steel guns.
Jim Cirillo had plenty of experience and knowledge. His opinions are worth the effort to study. Having said that, times have changed. There are so many much better bullets and ammo available today that weren't available back then that I'm more inclined to consider today's offerings to be superior to those "back in the day".
A man in North Carolina was shot roughly 20 times in 1995 and lived to tell about it. The rapper 50 Cent was shot nine times and survived. And in 2006, Joseph Guzman survived 19 gunshot wounds from police.
I lost two friends from wounds caused by a 22 cal firearm. One was from an accidental discharge by a negligent gun shop employee working on a jammed rifle. A single 22 cal bullet to the heart resulted in his immediate death. My second friend died from a self inflicted wound from a 22 cal to the chest. Many prisoners in the concentration camps during WWII died from a single .32 cal bullet to the back of the head. Bullet placement is everything.
I lost two friends from wounds caused by a 22 cal firearm. One was from an accidental discharge by a negligent gun shop employee working on a jammed rifle. A single 22 cal bullet to the heart resulted in his immediate death. My second friend died from a self inflicted wound from a 22 cal to the chest. Many prisoners in the concentration camps during WWII died from a single .32 cal bullet to the back of the head. Bullet placement is everything.
How many need to meet that ridiculous standard to still do the job?
How many other colorful descriptions did Elmer use?
smithra_66
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You put a 44 Mag center mass on someone and it would be as close to a 1 shot stop as humanly possible in a small arm.
smithra_66
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It's not EVERYTHING, but it's important. Velocity, bullet diameter, and bullet weight also indeed matter.
And that's why I carry 130 gr JHP in my 3" model 66....
This is one of those "it depends" things. Back in the day, fixed-sight revolvers were regulated for 158-grain ammo. "Mid-range" (target) and full-charge wadcutters shot to point of aim with those guns. 158-grain defensive loads with hollowpoint bullets didn't (and still don't) expand reliably at snubby velocities. Boutique ammo might, though independent testing has shown it's often at well above advertised +P pressures.
Current defensive loads are mostly in the 125-135-grain range and modern snubbies are regulated for them. Ammo companies have concentrated their R&D efforts in this range and it shows in good performance from snubbies, and they often perform well in 3-4" barrels as well.
For me, this translates as follows: My M49 ND is loaded with Federal Gold Medal Match 148-grain WCs, and the speed strip holds R-P standard velocity 158-grain LSWCs for easier reloads. My 642-2 is loaded with Speer 135-grain Gold Dot Short Barrel, and so is the speed strip.
If the ammo companies come up with a 158-grain expanding load that penetrates 12-18" from a snubby, I'll be all over it. For the time being, I'm sticking with wadcutters.
AJ
US Veteran
While a friend and I shoot air rifles (.177 cal). He has three that will get the job done without a doubt. One is in .22, another is 9MM, and the last is .50. These are filled with a scuba tank to get enough air pressure.
It IS bullet placement, isn't it?
AJ
US Veteran
It is always proper bullet placement. A center mass hit will normally do the trick.
6thtexas
Member
Those appear to be the type of projectiles Cirillo was working on and tried to get someone to produce. Check out the Chapter "Are Hollowpoint Bullets the Way to Go?' in his book "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights".. The only time he mentions one of these bullets being used in a gunfight was when his partner Bill Allard used one in a .45ACP. I have never seen where any ammuntion company ever picked these up to produce.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
The old ".30 Carbine wouldn't penetrate Chinese coats in Korea" chestnut has been debunked many times over. Its pretty easy to test.
The .30 Carbine will definitely not penetrate Chinese jackets if you miss, though.
The .30 Carbine will definitely not penetrate Chinese jackets if you miss, though.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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The failings of the 30 Carbine in Korea were probably due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marine trying to fight Red hordes at 0200 in zero degree weather.
fatcat3
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Live in Maine, not the coldest place I ever lived but it gets brisk. always wondered where these people were living that winter clothes stopped bullets. Dad was one of the frozen chosen and always said people that thought that the 30 carbine was stopped by Chinese quilted vests just missed the target.
OH, Standard pressure 158gn SWC for me.
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It was the multi-layer woven bamboo fiber vests. Early precursor to kevlar. 
.30 cal from an M-1 carbine was well known to penetrate the existing bulletproof vests of the day. My dad told me about testing them in WWII when he was stationed at the Aberdeen Proving Ground.
.30 cal from an M-1 carbine was well known to penetrate the existing bulletproof vests of the day. My dad told me about testing them in WWII when he was stationed at the Aberdeen Proving Ground.
ManInBlack83
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AJ
US Veteran
A few pages from Jim Cirillo's book. Good advice from a guy who's BTDT.
Good book, I got a copy about two weeks ago. It echos a lot of the things we were taught at Battalion Schools "Combat Pistol/Revolver Course" back in 1988.
T. McIntyre
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That is utter nonsense.
The whole "well the average gunfight is 2.5 feet away and over in 3.3 rounds" is about as much nonsense as well.
I say this as someone who has been in multiple shootings. Yet somehow I have never been in an "average" fight...
Just limiting this to stateside, and not during the war, where getting shot at while defending our regional embassy outposts could be and literally was at one location a bi weekly occurrence.
Anyways, I have been shot at distances where I could almost touch the guy, and then at a distance of over 100 yards.
And to ones who always "but, but, but" because they want to put things into nice neat little packages, and parameters. Bullets don't care. Bullets don't care if you define something as "offensive or defensive". Or of a person who is shooting at you is wearing a desert tan uniform, or the colors of a local gang member, or just the regular clothes of a pissed off knucklehead. It makes no difference.
Conflict is conflict and battle is battle. When people are trying to kill you, you don't stop and say "wait, is this an offensive shooting and are you 6.5 feet away?", is this a police shooting, or a civilian shooting, because a gunfight between two men is somehow different if someone is wearing blue polyester! I can just walk away if I am a citizen! (NO, No you cannot. Predators do not let people just "walk away"..) I need to change guns and tactics and define things differently. Timeout!
I need a gun with rifling, and I need to aim. Wait!
The REALITY is that EVERY shooting is a precision shooting event. It does not matter of you are in a meeting hall in a village in Iraq, or a grocery store isle or parking lot in Iowa. You are responsible for your rounds, and you have to make precise hits. Or there are consequences.
I have carried a J Frame for more than 25 years loaded with wadcutters, and practiced with those wadcutters out to 50 yards. The J Frame is generally a BUG to my primary, but I treat it as a precision weapon and train with it as such.
I have learned exactly where the sights hit at different yardages, as shown here:
And here are two groups at 50 yards. The blue dots were my first group.
The point is that I have never, not once been issued a crystal ball to tell me that in 10 minutes that I was going to be in a gunfight, how many people would be involved or if there would be hostages. So I train and practice as if my life and the lives of the people I care about depend on it because they do and they have.
In spite of what the theorists think, you won't get the fight you WANT.
You will get the fight that you GET.
It won't be in your favor. You just have to deal with it. How well you deal with it will depend on how long you and possibly others will live.
There is your reality check for the day.
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That is utter nonsense.
The whole "well the average gunfight is 2.5 feet away and over in 3.3 rounds" is about as much nonsense as well.
I say this as someone who has been in multiple shootings. Yet somehow I have never been in an "average" fight...
Just limiting this to stateside, and not during the war, where getting shot at while defending our regional embassy outposts could be and literally was at one location a bi weekly occurrence.
Anyways, I have been shot at distances where I could almost touch the guy, and then at a distance of over 100 yards.
And to ones who always "but, but, but" because they want to put things into nice neat little packages, and parameters. Bullets don't care. Bullets don't care if you define something as "offensive or defensive". Or of a person who is shooting at you is wearing a desert tan uniform, or the colors of a local gang member, or just the regular clothes of a pissed off knucklehead. It makes no difference.
Conflict is conflict and battle is battle. When people are trying to kill you, you don't stop and say "wait, is this an offensive shooting and are you 6.5 feet away?", is this a police shooting, or a civilian shooting, because a gunfight between two men is somehow different if someone is wearing blue polyester! I can just walk away if I am a citizen! (NO, No you cannot. Predators do not let people just "walk away"..) I need to change guns and tactics and define things differently. Timeout!
I need a gun with rifling, and I need to aim. Wait!
The REALITY is that EVERY shooting is a precision shooting event. It does not matter of you are in a meeting hall in a village in Iraq, or a grocery store isle or parking lot in Iowa. You are responsible for your rounds, and you have to make precise hits. Or there are consequences.
I have carried a J Frame for more than 25 years loaded with wadcutters, and practiced with those wadcutters out to 50 yards. The J Frame is generally a BUG to my primary, but I treat it as a precision weapon and train with it as such.
I have learned exactly where the sights hit at different yardages, as shown here:
And here are two groups at 50 yards. The blue dots were my first group.
The point is that I have never, not once been issued a crystal ball to tell me that in 10 minutes that I was going to be in a gunfight, how many people would be involved or if there would be hostages. So I train and practice as if my life and the lives of the people I care about depend on it because they do and they have.
In spite of what the theorists think, you won't get the fight you WANT.
You will get the fight that you GET.
It won't be in your favor. You just have to deal with it. How well you deal with it will depend on how long you and possibly others will live.
There is your reality check for the day.
Nothing wrong with shooting a J-frame at distance. Too many preach the close-up creed, primarily using it as an excuse to avoid improving shooting skill. J-frames are truly difficult for most of us to master, but the guns are certainly capable.
smoothshooter
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