Wadcutters still relevant?

OK, I'll be the naysayer here. The typical factory loaded wadcutter is lucky to be going 800 fps out of a 2" barrel. So there's not much power there. If it hits something vital, great, but you better have precision shot placement. Otherwise, you've just carved a .358 hole in the guy that has little chance of actually stopping his aggression. Just look at why Teddy Roosevelt dropped the .38. And no, I don't believe there's much difference between a flat bullet and a round bullet in this instance.

It's your life, so it's your choice. Feel free to use a slow wadcutter to protect you and yours. However, there are literally hundreds of better options.

No one is saying a wadcutter is the only option...just that it's an option. Everyone has their own specific set of needs and preferences and each case is unique. We each have to determine our own needs and what best suits those needs.
 
No one is saying a wadcutter is the only option...just that it's an option. Everyone has their own specific set of needs and preferences and each case is unique. We each have to determine our own needs and what best suits those needs.

True, but I don't really see how a wadcutter ends up being the best option if one is choosing a bullet for specifically for self defense.

Is it a bad choice? No.
Are they the "best" choice? No.
Are they a good choice? They'll probably work as well as anything else in most scenarios...

The bullets and most load data is geared towards being used as target rounds.
 
True, but I don't really see how a wadcutter ends up being the best option if one is choosing a bullet for specifically for self defense.

Is it a bad choice? No.
Are they the "best" choice? No.
Are they a good choice? They'll probably work as well as anything else in most scenarios...

The bullets and most load data is geared towards being used as target rounds.

I agree...not necessarily the best option...but it is an option. It all comes down to mental preparedness...tactics...use of verbal commands...the ability to think and act accordingly and accuracy.

Bullet designs are constantly changing...what might be best today might be tomorrow's second rate design.

Choose an effective round that one is competent with...practice...practice...practice. Two quick hits with a wadcutter may be better than one miss or peripheral hit with a more effective round that recoil too much for some.

The least effective .38 Special round may be the 158 grain lead round nose or the 130 grain FMJ round duplicating the military M41...and both have been used for decades effectively...and also non-effectively. There are no guarantees...you can use .38 Special JHP +P+ and do everything right...and still die.
 
The target wadcutter ammo is underpowered by design - faster recovery during rapid fire, easier on the recoil sensitive when shooting all day, etc. Most people's experience with wadcutters ends there.

Personally, I've been hunting thin-skinned game like whitetail deer with handguns for 40+ years. I'd guess that I've dressed around 100 that were taken with a handgun, very often with handloaded hard cast lead wadcutters. I'd assert that terminal performance on 170+ pound animals is a much more reliable indicator than ballistic gel or gunfight anecdotes.

I'm also skeptical about hollowpoint ammo appreciably expanding if it doesn't hit bone or is moving below ~1,100 FPS at impact. At east coast woods distances, .44 special wadcutters loaded to around 1,000 FPS from a 6" revolver are demonstrably more effective than .45 ACP hollowpoints. They are about as effective as hot .357 hollows at similar distances and shot placements but kick and cost lot less. As a bullet shape, the wadcutter is a solid choice for defense ammo. As a complete cartridge they are, too, when loaded to do that job. They're also much more accurate.

Yeah, but other than that, what do they have going for them?
 
Let's get real here.

If you knew that you were going to need a gun tomorrow, you wouldn't leave the house without a rifle or shotgun and probably take along a buddy with rifle or a shotgun. Every easily concealable handgun is a compromise. Every. One. If you carry a concealed handgun, then you should know this. None of them are magic blasters.

However, 99.9999999% of us won't need a gun tomorrow, but on the off chance that we do, we carry a concealed handgun. Sometimes, it is a small handgun, like a J-frame, that is hard to shoot, especially in a high stress encounter. That hollow point probably isn't going to expand at snubby velocities, and if recoil is stout you might not shoot accurately. In this case, wadcutters with proven penetration and minimal recoil, might just be the ticket. You are more prone to get multiple hits on the vitals, with bullets that will cause damage without needing expansion, and with adequate penetration.
 
Let's get real here.
That hollow point probably isn't going to expand at snubby velocities, and if recoil is stout you might not shoot accurately. In this case, wadcutters with proven penetration and minimal recoil, might just be the ticket. You are more prone to get multiple hits on the vitals, with bullets that will cause damage without needing expansion, and with adequate penetration.

First, hollow points not expanding from snubbies may have been true 20-30 years ago, but that's no longer the case. It's demonstrably true that that will expand from snubbies if you choose the load designed for snubbies, of which there are many.

Second, if you want to cause the most damage without needing expansion, then carry the largest diameter bullet such as a .44 or .45 instead of a .38. Otherwise, go with expansion.
 
I would guess with WCs cast of Lead with 5% Tin and reasonable charge for snubby, you wouldn't have to worry about coating, plating or lubing. I shot 10 Lyman Button Nose 242 gr WCs out of 25-5, running approx 650fps. They were shot as cast with no lube or size. Clean as a whistle. This out of same gun that Speer 250SWC had lead creeping out the muzzel, with same charge.
 
I produce ammo and one of the most popular loads I make is a 148 grain full wadcutter for folks who will carry them in snub nose guns. They are what I use/carry in my own 442.

sAcHdDUl.jpg


I carried the same gun/load combo when I was on the job as a BUG, and now that I work for myself, I see zero reason to change.

Gn1mnjDl.jpg
 
<<Wicked wadcutters? A defensive load you may not have considered.>>

<<"a popular bullet with revolver shooters was the "lead pencil": a 230-grain .358-diameter full wadcutter">>

Color me interested... can't find anything online about this.
 
"OK, I'll be the naysayer here. The typical factory loaded wadcutter is lucky to be going 800 fps out of a 2" barrel. So there's not much power there. If it hits something vital, great, but you better have precision shot placement. Otherwise, you've just carved a .358 hole in the guy that has little chance of actually stopping his aggression. Just look at why Teddy Roosevelt dropped the .38. And no, I don't believe there's much difference between a flat bullet and a round bullet in this instance.

It's your life, so it's your choice. Feel free to use a slow wadcutter to protect you and yours. However, there are literally hundreds of better options."


Contrary,
The "Wadcutter" is here to stay whether we like it or not. There's no denying that it isn't a lethal round. It's a very formidable round out of a 1.875" J frame barrel. Albeit, it has a low velocity... it can still penetrate deep. In fact, I would argue that it meets the FBI standard for penetration and then some. And not to forget that it's a very accurate round. Also note, the wadcutter does not need to expand to be effective, but rather its full flat tip, and or full concaved tip along with a sharp and round edge is very effective at cutting. Lastly, bullets don't always have to expand massively to be effective as in the case of the modern hollow point.
 
Last edited:
Shoot what you aim at and make good hits and most bullets will do the job. Hit something important and the attack usually stops, especially if it's followed by a big leak.
 
Back in the day, .38 special wadcutters were useful and effective against assailants, especially when fired from lightweight, short barreled revolvers.

Unfortunately, they don't work anymore. :(

When I first started working as a Policeman we were issued 158 grain LRN. The upgrade was to 158 grain LSWC and later the 158 grain LSWCHP.

Wadcutters were just for PPC and target practice.
 
I remember years ago reading an interview with the legendary Bill Jordan. He talked about handloading hollow base wadcutters hotter than target rounds, but he said "somehow those HBWC bullets got in backwards"
 
This is true, but a plated boolit or powder coated boolit doesn't require as much work or thought to solve issues and doesn't have to be fit to each gun. You load it and move on.

Rosewood
If you can find any to buy ...
Not being dependant on others is very satisfying .
I'm my own supply company and make all I want when I want .
What is a bullet shortage ... I've never had one !
Gary
 
The old gunfighting adage is "Shot placement is king, bullet penetration is queen, and everything else is just fairies dancing on the head of a pin."

My adage is "a .25 in your pocket is far more effective than a .45 left at home." My carry gun is a .25.
 
Last edited:
The old gunfighting adage is "Shot placement is king, bullet penetration is queen, and everything else is just fairies dancing on the head of a pin."

My adage is "a .25 in your pocket is far more effective than a .45 left at home." My carry gun is a .25.

That's good…I'm gonna use it if you don't mind.

Or…as Wyatt Earp is credited with saying…"Speed is fine…but accuracy is final." And…"in a gunfight…take your time…quickly."
 
Wadcutters? Sure, but skills not gear.

Are wadcutters still a good choice for self defense (thinking.38/.357)? I see that a copper/copper coated wadcutter is being offered. If I were to use wadcutters, they would be copper.

We talk so much about equipment because we can. We are conditioned to believe in our liberal dominated society (and by our movies and TV) that the weapon has all the power of intimidation and therefore control. Once the shooting starts however, we think that now the projectile has all the dominating power, hence endless debates about caliber, expansion and penetration, bullet design and velocity etc. This does not hurt my feelings at all.

Can you imagine a fencing match where we all declared that someone lost a competition because the tip of his foil was shaped wrong? Can you imagine me declaring that Jim Bowie was able to kill men with a knife because his was half an inch longer than anybody else's? Your mind goes to the real issue, that what you do in a fight depends upon what your opponent does.

The wadcutter has regained a following as people accepted 2 ideas:
1. Overpenetration is a myth, mainly because every miss is an overpenetration.
2. Expansion is unreliable in short-barreled weapons. Chris Baker at LuckyGunner.com/labs demonstrated that from a 2 incher you can have either a) reliable penetration, which you need if your enemy is moving and turns to the side, or b) reliable expansion which you need if your assailant moves a little to the side of your "shot placement" but not both.

The wadcutter if loaded to adequate velocity, causes as Harris says, "full caliber crush". At self-defense distances, the rounded meplat confers no benefit in flight. In a revolver, a rounded nose does improve reloading efficiency but does not affect weapon function as it does in a semi auto.
It also penetrates as well as +p loads which cannot be used in airweight revolvers, and which many people do not shoot well.

After the Civil War, Southrons debated why the cause was lost and why Gettysburg was lost. Someone asked General Lee for his opinion on the question. He usually remained silent on the whole subject for the rest of his life considering the issue settled by the will of Almighty God. But the nearest thing to an answer he ever gave was to say,
"I always thought that the Yankees had something to do with it."

Thanks for your post I enjoyed the thread. Please correct me anyone, I am not the expert.
 
I remember years ago reading an interview with the legendary Bill Jordan. He talked about handloading hollow base wadcutters hotter than target rounds, but he said "somehow those HBWC bullets got in backwards"

I think that was Dean Grennell.

Bill Jordan and the Border Patrol carried 357 Magnums in those days. That is why, the Model 19 was created.
 
Bill Jordan, or maybe Skeeter Skelton, talked about loading hollow base wadcutters backwards and using them for defense. That said, I think there are better choices these days.
 
Back
Top