Walther PPK any Walther folks on here

[Joe Canuck]

Since we're on a PPK or PP thread here, sure, lets see the pic.

 

[Joe Canuck]

PPK story and suppositions

The fella I got my PPK from purchased it from a gun store in 1985. I have official paperwork to confirm that. The gun store told him that they got if at an auction, and that it was being sold at auction by the Winnipeg, Manitoba, Police. Apparently it was used by a Detective there.

Canada being a NATO country, and being a, "police order", would make sense for no proof marks.

The, "Drop Eagle 863", or E/863 marks are, Post WWII acceptance stamps used by the German Materials Testing Agency of the Ministry of Defense. These were used on Post WWII military weapons both for Germany and members of NATO who had purchased Walthers.

Given the strict rules on German armament production after WWII, there were a few ways to continue producing firearms in spite of the rules. I now believe that my PPK had the frame and barrel produced in St. Entiennes, (spelling), France, only 60K or 40 miles from the Walther facility in Ulm, Germany. Their proof marks do not appear anywhere on the gun. Walther produced the slide, and mated it with the French parts. That way, Germany was not producing firearms, only parts for them.
Then guns were, "assembled". Note in my pics that the blueing does not match from slide to frame. That's because they were blued in 2 different countries. Note the German blueing is nicer.
The magazines are German Walther. One with pistol grip extention, and one with a flat base. This is standard issue for the PPK, one of each type.

The cardboard box is now maybe original to the gun as we have found another one just like it.

It came with a shoulder holster setup with the removable holster showing signs of considerable use. The inside of it, while being in good repair, is quite blackened in areas where the PPK would contact it. The threads on one side of the holster are somewhat discombobulated. It needs to have the seam re-sewn. Perhaps I should leave it alone. The PPK fits it like a long worn glove or boot. Now a bit loose at the side threads.

There are a couple of folks who dated it by the serial number to be 1968 or 69 manufacture.

So, did the Winnipeg Police Department, in the late 60's, order up a bunch of PPK's.

Somewhat prior to the 1985 auction, did the Winnipeg Police Detectives switch to a different gun and therefore need to get rid of the old PPK's for budgetary reasons? Surely they would have to get rid of un-needed assets to please the Winnipeg City Council who were funding them.

Did James Bond ever borrow it?

Stay tooned.

Thanks soooo very much to all who have chimed in on this. You folks are the best.

Joe Canuck, (Pete)
.

 

[4T5GUY]

I only have three right now. Not that I’m against Nazi-ism or Nazi’s in general, I prefer to collect pre-war examples. Of course I have been forced to get Nazi marked pistols just because that was when they were made. But even my HSc and 1934 Mausers are early “commercials”.)

Pictured are; 1938 .32 PP, 1935 .32 PPK, and again the early ‘70’s .22 PP British L66a1. The PPK came with the original clam holster, with a German Doctors name under the flap, and extra magazine.

Jim

 

[4T5GUY]

That was an important point about the magazines and I didn’t mention it.

My L66A1 came with two, one flat and one finger extension, like your PPK.

Jim

 

[Joe Canuck]

Nice collection man, I'm afraid to even start down that road.

 

[Absalom]

Let‘s not get carried away with all the speculation.

As was already pointed out, the “eagle with drooping wings“ is a German Federal quality control mark and not found on either commercial or police-issued pistols. The box label looks like an original German label not related to any exporter.

In the 1960s, the West German army and air force purchased limited numbers of PPKs for military intelligence, personal protection details, and pilots. While I have no specific knowledge about serial ranges and circumstances, that would be the most obvious explanation for this gun.

As for manufacture, this PPK, as were all PP/PPK pistols until the mid-1980s, was manufactured at Manurhin/Mulhouse in France and shipped to Ulm/Germany for proofing and finishing. St.Etienne was a French proofhouse and has nothing to do with this gun, only with Manurhin-finished pistols. Like P1 pistols, the PPKs appear to have skipped the Ulm proofing and been federally tested instead.

PS: The number within the drooping wings was an inspector code. Police PPs/PPKs were not tested by this agency (the “Güteprüfdienst des Bundesverteidigungsministeriums“, if you want to really sound knowledgeable ), but were commercial-proofed, so I do not believe this pistol could have been part of an official order by any foreign police department, unlike the above-mentioned British orders, which were military.

 

[Texas Star]

My guess is that James Bond would have been issued with a commercial pistol, not one that'd mark him as an agent with a NATO-marked/proofed gun.

And I'm sure that the sophisticated Mr. Bond would have preferred the nicer box!

 

[BAM-BAM]

My guess is that James Bond would have been issued with a commercial pistol, not one that'd mark him as an agent with a NATO-marked/proofed gun.

And I'm sure that the sophisticated Mr. Bond would have preferred the nicer box!

If I remember correctly it came in a wood box and had a hinged lid. no spare magazine.............................. and he left the box with Moneypenny.......

 

[old&slow]

My guess there were a lot of us bitten by the "Bond; James Bond" bug growing up............ "hits like a brick through a glass window"


!

I always got a kick out of that line in the James Bond movie,
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipEAuEUooys[/ame]

 

[THE PILGRIM]

My Old Georgia Buddy had a nice one.
He got it for free while touring Germany in 1944-45.
It was brand new in the box from an Arsenal.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I get a kick out of the unmarked "clean" spy gun....concept.

Would think any ''commercial" gun would be GTG........ as long as it wasn't marked as "Property of the CIA"

Today all the novels use Glock 19s because they are made in Austria ...... personally I'd opt of a CZ 75 made behind the Iron Curtain!

 

[Texas Star]

I get a kick out of the unmarked "clean" spy gun....concept.

Would think any ''commercial" gun would be GTG........ as long as it wasn't marked as "Property of the CIA"

Today all the novels use Glock 19s because they are made in Austria ...... personally I'd opt of a CZ 75 made behind the Iron Curtain!

That'd get you fried pretty quickly, unless you were posing as someone from a country where Commie guns were easily found.
And Bond, 007, operated mainly in the West.

Ian Fleming once asked his gun-savvy pal, Geoffrey Boothroyd, which guns a Russian agent in the West would have. My feeling is that he'd have something made here, in a NATO country. A Soviet gun would stand out and raise suspicions.

A REAL former CIA agent wrote some spy novels in the 60's. His heroes generally had German WW II 7.65mm pistols, as those were by then scattered around the world and didn't shout "American!" if seen.

I wish that I could recall that author's name. His books were quite good.

An OSS agent who followed into CIA had a .25 Beretta, apparently Model 418. It was issued by her duty station in Madrid during the war, and she killed a knife-wielding Gypsy with it. This lady was from New York, but married into the Spanish nobility. She wrote under her title, Aline, Countess of Romanones. Her first autobiographical book is, The Spy Wore Red. Worth hunting for.

The Bond books have continued, by certain authors chosen by the franchise owners. I've not liked any as well as I did Fleming. The last such book I read had Bond with a Walther PPS 9mm.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

According to the usual suspects,
The SF in Okinawa had sterile Hi Powers and Swedish K’s.
They were locked up at a Arsenal location and only pulled out if a mission required them.

 

[BAM-BAM]

That'd get you fried pretty quickly, unless you were posing as someone from a country where Commie guns were easily found.


Ian Fleming once asked his gun-savvy pal, Geoffrey Boothroyd, which guns a Russian agent in the West would have. My feeling is that he'd have something made here, in a NATO country. A Soviet gun would stand out and raise suspicions.

LOL..... I'm talking 2018 not 1958; Glocks, Beretta's, Sigs, CZs (and clones) and Makarov's are found all over the world these days.......... as "The Pilgrim" mentioned a Hi-power; an FN vs Browning(US Import) since WWII they are everywhere in the world.

I would think a "'sterile" gun without markings or serial #s would be a dead give away.

By the way a friend of mine was a Artillery Captain in Viet Nam..... said he carried a HP "off duty" and had a Swedish K.



Bond moved away from the PPK for a few year but the writers stuck to Walthers ....... IIRC a full size P99 played a role in two movies!

In the 90s Bond was armed with an ASP in at least a couple of the "new" books. Myself I'd have given him a 3914..... maybe an NL... .. in the last couple of movies I've noted that he now carries (sometimes) his PPK IWB at 4 O'clock!

 

[Joe Canuck]

Yes indeed, NOW my box looks like yours. My box did not have the label on it, just the hand written serial number on it. Otherwise, it looks to be the same even though mine was for a PP.

This is fun, thanks for your original post and questions.

Jim

Jim, does your box show signs of old label glue?

Pete
.

 

[Joe Canuck]

Notice the difference in the style of the numerals between the frame and slide? Perhaps a replacement for the original that was damaged beyond repair. Would like to see a picture of the other side of the slide.

Pic of other side has been posted.

 

[Joe Canuck]

Let‘s not get carried away with all the speculation.

As was already pointed out, the “eagle with drooping wings“ is a German Federal quality control mark and not found on either commercial or police-issued pistols. The box label looks like an original German label not related to any exporter.

In the 1960s, the West German army and air force purchased limited numbers of PPKs for military intelligence, personal protection details, and pilots. While I have no specific knowledge about serial ranges and circumstances, that would be the most obvious explanation for this gun.

As for manufacture, this PPK, as were all PP/PPK pistols until the mid-1980s, was manufactured at Manurhin/Mulhouse in France and shipped to Ulm/Germany for proofing and finishing. St.Etienne was a French proofhouse and has nothing to do with this gun, only with Manurhin-finished pistols. Like P1 pistols, the PPKs appear to have skipped the Ulm proofing and been federally tested instead.

PS: The number within the drooping wings was an inspector code. Police PPs/PPKs were not tested by this agency (the “Güteprüfdienst des Bundesverteidigungsministeriums“, if you want to really sound knowledgeable ), but were commercial-proofed, so I do not believe this pistol could have been part of an official order by any foreign police department, unlike the above-mentioned British orders, which were military.

Now this is interesting. You also set my personal record for this year for the longest word. I even tried to pronounce it. Speculation is all I have until I am corrected. Thanks for the expertise. I really appreciate all the info gleaned here. Seems like it was most likely originally a military issue.

 

[4T5GUY]

In response to the box/label question, I don’t recall that there was any evidence of a label. No glue residual that I remember, just the hand written serial number. It’s been almost 30 yrs since I found it in a True Value Hardware store for @$250.00, but I’ve seen the box since then. As I said it never meant anything to me but I saved it.

I do not want to sound like a braggart, (or a hoarding gun “nut”,) but I have so many factory boxes in so many larger boxes, that it would take a while for me to find this particular one. The more valuable Colt, Browning, HiStandard, S&W, etc ones I have stacked in a cabinet in my gun room. The others are just in boxes. I’ll try to find it and post some pictures though.

Jim

 

[Joe Canuck]

In response to the box/label question, I don’t recall that there was any evidence of a label. No glue residual that I remember, just the hand written serial number. It’s been almost 30 yrs since I found it in a True Value Hardware store for @$250.00, but I’ve seen the box since then. As I said it never meant anything to me but I saved it.

I do not want to sound like a braggart, (or a hoarding gun “nut”,) but I have so many factory boxes in so many larger boxes, that it would take a while for me to find this particular one. The more valuable Colt, Browning, HiStandard, S&W, etc ones I have stacked in a cabinet in my gun room. The others are just in boxes. I’ll try to find it and post some pictures though.

Jim

Good thing it's winter. A good time may present itself to search for that, "Diamond in the Rough". I also have a collection of boxes for many things. Yes I have it, where is it? Hmmmm. Like you, I have a new respect for this sturdy plain cardboard box. Unlike the more collectible boxes, these may have been more likely to have been, "thrown out". If that's the case, it's all the rarer.