warning - rifle reloading question.

[crsides]

I picked up a 35Rem and a 358 Win lever guns this past yr and have been developing loads for each. Using Rem Round nose core lokt bullets purchased as repackaged from Midway. I was shooting the 35Rem with 39.0 gr and 39.5 gr loads of TAC, 3 of each. The first two shots of each were in a half inch at 100yrds, the third shot of each string was 1 1/2" to 2" below the other two.

Curious, thought maybe the rifle was heating up on the third shot causing this. Then while loading more rounds, I noticed one of four bullets on the table seem a little different. I ended up weighting it and several others. I got two at 200g, three at 201.5g, seven at 202.5, one at 203.5 and one at 204.

Questions:
is this much variation typical?
would this much variation drop the bullet out of a group?
am I going to have to weigh my bullets for a hunting loads?

Charlie

 

[brucev]

Re: weight variation. In common bulk bullets, variation such as you list can occur. How it would affect POI on target is debatable. Take the bullets you have and weigh a sample of say ten bullets. Find the average weight. Sort the bullets in terms of at that average weight... or say one grain above and one grain below. Then average and sort each group again. You will have nine batches of bullets which are very close in weight. Look at the bases and select out any w/ a observable defect, i.e., nicks, dents, etc. Use those bullets to work up loads. Use the otherwise good condition bullets for accuracy testing, hunting.

Lever action rifles do not normally shoot under MOA. You are fortunate to have two that will put at least the first two rounds very close together. That the third round diverges from the group is not uncommon. A number of years ago I read several articles in Guns and Ammo magazine by Sam Fadala (SP???) on lever action rifles that might be helpful in diagnosing and correcting any issues w/ bedding, fit of barrel band, etc. that might be contributing to the vertical stringing you describe.

 

[Alk8944]

Weight variation of +/- 1% is considered normal and within tolerance for all bullets. This is not enough variation to cause a noticeable effect on group size. You really need to weigh enough of those bullets to determine the average weight, not just the manufacturers nominal weight. As brucev said, lever actions are typically not MOA rifles. Anything under 2" is generally considered as good accuracy.

If you were seeing +/- 5 grains that would be something else entirely.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't think such a small variation in bullet weight would drop a bullet 2" out of the group @100 yards. That is less than a 2% difference in weight.

I would not judge any load or group by shooting only 3 rounds. IMO you would need 5 sets of 3 rounds to get any idea how they are shooting. Only 3 rounds is way too small a sample to make any conclusions. You could have pulled the shot, the wind could have kicked up down near the target and any other number of things other than the ammo.

Accurate lists a charge range for TAC and a 200gr bullet as 36.0gr to 40.0gr, you started up near the Max charge. IMO that's also not a good thing to do.

I think your next test should be done with at least 12 to 15 rounds of one charge weight and average the groups.

 

[Nevada Ed]

As mentioned not a big thing........
but a difference in a bullets Dia., damaged nose or seated off center can cause it to loose accuracy from the other loads.

You can check the bullets for major marks or dings before loading but I usually don't weigh them until down to "Finals" or hunting ammo.

Considering all the things that can happen while firing at a target............ one flyer in a group is not too bad. Now if they all look like a section of Swiss cheese, you might have a problem.

+1;
on the 1st bullet out of the barrel is usually the one that counts !!
My father has a Browning 30-06 auto with a mag that holds 5 rounds.....
if you needed to fire the 5th round you might as well grab it and chuck it over your shoulder!

Safe shooting.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Lots of good advice here. Lever guns have all the issues a bolt action can have and some of the issues of semi-autos and their own, especially with the tubular magazine hanging from the barrel. Plus getting the same mount on any rest or bags from shot to shot is difficult. You might want to try early load development at 50 yards using only your elbows as a rest, and fine tune at 100 after it is proven at 50. Ivan (I know it is easy for me to say, but I have worked up loads on my 8 lever guns and 5 for others).

 

[gwpercle]

Before you do anything drastic, try another brand of bullet. I have always had best results in rifles with Hornady bullets...that is if you can get ANY other kind in this day of out of stock and back -orders. Some rifles just don't like some bullets and I have no idea why.
I had a 7X57 model 95 Spanish Mauser sporter that only would group well with 160 gr. Hornady round nosed bullets...so thats what I loaded.
Gary

 

[crsides]

thanks for the info guys. some clarification is in order. the two three shot groups were fired with the same rifle, the 35Rem Marlin. I do have a few Hornady 200gr bullets that i will be using in the 358 win. I bought a box of the Rem RNCL last summer from Midway. I shoulda bought the 500 bullet box, since I have seen NONE for sale since.

The odd thing about the combined two groups is that the first two from each load (39.0 & 39.5) made a combined 4 shot group of 1", the third shots from the two loads were touching, 2" below. see pic. I am really surprised at the overall accuracy considering the lever gun and that I was doing the shooting. I have loaded some additional rounds, all at 39.0gr, and in batches by weight. Will let you know how these group and where the various weight groups printed. (the inside of the target square is 1".)

thanks , Charlie

 

[Nevada Ed]

The Remington Core-Lokt bullet is a great hunting bullet ........
if you can get it to group.

I have tested the 150gr CL in my custom 1903 30-06 with 26 loads and five different powders and with or w/o a crimp and have only one load that will group 3 bullets at 1" at 100 yards.

With other brand bullets I can get 5 bullets at or near 1" groups.

As a note, you don't need to get the 200gr RN up to the 1990fps or more.......... at just 1840 fps that bullet is plenty for deer at 100 yards.......... using most medium burn rate powders.

Good loading.

 

[gregintenn]

Looks like pretty fair groups for a lever action and bargain bullets.

 

[rwsmith]

Weighing cartridges.....

It's not helpful to weigh loaded rifle cartridges because the weight of the brass can vary some, too. Matching brass can have some variations and if you weigh different brand brass it probably won't even be close.

 

[mtgianni]

You may get your best groups by weight sorting bullets and cases and grouping them together. They might be in groups of 25 or 10 but you could mark the primers and shoot them to see if it is the gun or the load. For hunting the first shot from a cold bbl is what you are after with a second shot near it. Last of all I hear an old friend and mentor screaming "When did a group come to mean less than ten shots?"

 

[Doubless]

Weight variation of +/- 1% is considered normal and within tolerance for all bullets. This is not enough variation to cause a noticeable effect on group size. You really need to weigh enough of those bullets to determine the average weight, not just the manufacturers nominal weight. As brucev said, lever actions are typically not MOA rifles. Anything under 2" is generally considered as good accuracy.

If you were seeing +/- 5 grains that would be something else entirely.

I respectfully beg to differ. I know for a fact that bullet weight divergence in as small a weight as half a grain will cause a group to open up. Why do you think the cast bullet shooters and the BPCR guys weigh and typically cull bullets that are >+/- 0.2 grains?

And your 1% won't work, either, at least in one application: I cast for my muzzleloaders, and 1% of a 500-grain bullet is five grains. I know for a fact (having done it) that five grains of bullet weight difference in a 500-grain conical will result in a completely different POI.

 

[Pocketfisherman]

Both my Marlin 336 and Winchester 94 start stringing shots after the 2nd or third one. The only way to get consitent results is to let my barrel cool 3-5 minutes between shots. What you are seeing is pretty normal for lever guns....you shoot two shots thinking darn this thing can group, then the next 3 are all over the paper. Average bullet weight variance is not going to be enough to notice with the accuracy capability of the average LE rifle.....unless your rifle is a BLR.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Both my Marlin 336 and Winchester 94 start stringing shots after the 2nd or third one. The only way to get consitent results is to let my barrel cool 3-5 minutes between shots. What you are seeing is pretty normal for lever guns....you shoot two shots thinking darn this thing can group, then the next 3 are all over the paper. Average bullet weight variance is not going to be enough to notice with the accuracy capability of the average LE rifle.....unless your rifle is a BLR.

Maybe that's because if you miss a deer with the first AND second shot you usually have no need for a third shot. All you see is that white tail hopping between the trees way out there! lol

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

When bench shooting, are you loading each cartridge directly into the open breach or are you loading up the tube magazine? Just thinking here, but if the latter it could be a crimp issue. After two shots the bullet in the third cartridge may be shifting because of repeated recoil. But I agree with others in that the tube fed lever actions aren't noted for fine accuracy. 2-3" group at 100 yards won't win you any medals at the match but will do the job for hunting.
John